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Thread: An open letter to all the folks at TRION

  1. #31
    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiscuitG View Post
    Not to poop on the party or anything, but ever since I rolled a Cleric, I've had a lot more fun with this game.

    I honestly do not understand what the problem really is, or maybe I just don't look that deeply into it.

    Up until level 50, and through most of level 50, I did everything alone. Tanking/healing/DPSing. I didn't do any dungeons at the levels it required, I just waited until a higher level and went back and did it by myself.

    Recently, I decided to join a guild (and a pretty great first choice at that), having done tons of dungeons with them (t1's and 2's), I get to play all different roles. I've tanked, I've healed, I've DPS'ed, and I've supported. I've never been told that I can't do anything but heal, or "shut up and heal" or do what I'm supposed to. I'd probably leave the party if there were such rude people in it, too.

    All roles have been successful for me. Well, maybe not in the DPS department, but things die eventually.

    I, personally, have not had any issues with my Cleric. (Okay I do have mana problems sometimes because I forget to hit my mana regen spells, but once I remember them I'm good!)

    I guess my point is.... I don't have any problems with my Cleric. -shrug-

    When I rolled Mage, I needed help with a ton of things, though. Maybe it's just me.
    Clerics are fun when you first start doing t1's. As your gear gets better though, everything scales horribly. Your dps starts to suck (Even at t2 stage), by the time you reach raid level you have a hard time keeping aggro on more than 1 target (and thats with blowing every threat generator you have on it). Support in experts (icars) are useful and good because they provide decent dps with the capacity to help your healer out but they are not true support like archon/bard that gets used in raids.

  2. #32
    Rift Disciple Runkett's Avatar
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    Clerics are probably still great for casual players who want to do a variety of things, balance is not really a factor for this level of game play... its really only raid level that things are massively broken, since at this point you need to start doing things the 'best' way rather than 'I like having a pet goat, so ill spec druid' way.
    Gash - Cleric Tank
    Leader of <Blitz> Laethys - 9/11 HK

    Trion welcomes all feedback, even negative - the infractions issued should be considered a 'welcome present'

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by BiscuitG View Post
    Not to poop on the party or anything, but ever since I rolled a Cleric, I've had a lot more fun with this game.

    I honestly do not understand what the problem really is, or maybe I just don't look that deeply into it.

    Up until level 50, and through most of level 50, I did everything alone. Tanking/healing/DPSing. I didn't do any dungeons at the levels it required, I just waited until a higher level and went back and did it by myself.

    Recently, I decided to join a guild (and a pretty great first choice at that), having done tons of dungeons with them (t1's and 2's), I get to play all different roles. I've tanked, I've healed, I've DPS'ed, and I've supported. I've never been told that I can't do anything but heal, or "shut up and heal" or do what I'm supposed to. I'd probably leave the party if there were such rude people in it, too.

    All roles have been successful for me. Well, maybe not in the DPS department, but things die eventually.

    I, personally, have not had any issues with my Cleric. (Okay I do have mana problems sometimes because I forget to hit my mana regen spells, but once I remember them I'm good!)

    I guess my point is.... I don't have any problems with my Cleric. -shrug-

    When I rolled Mage, I needed help with a ton of things, though. Maybe it's just me.
    Guys it's ok, this guy doesn't have any problems with his cleric.

    TRION you can close this thread now!

  4. #34
    Soulwalker Belowzero's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorai View Post
    customers and fans, are unhappy with certain aspects of our calling, and are frustrated with the lack of progress, feedback and any feeling that our feedback is being listened to or taken into account.
    Welcome to Warhammer Online hope you enjoy your stay

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    I Wouldnt mind if LI, causes all heals to leave the hot. i mean, its 5 friggin points. It should be good for something. Having all heals to cause the HI hot, would at least cause the AoE portion of senti (and HB talented) to be significantly better.

    Just a thought.

    Mmm, could be casted heals only. Would get tricky with hots.
    This is a bigger problem though, the inconsistency of talents. Look all over the cleric talent trees, and you have talents that are obviously unbalanced. Take the +crit damage/heals, its far and away one of the best talents, only 1 or 2 come close, everything else is 2-5 times inferior. There's a reason no other class gets such a huge +crit damage modifier. Look at death's grasp and entropy. Now, why would you take a talent that gives you +damage to some spells when you can take another talent that gives you the same bonus to all spells? Or spirit guidance vs stroke of genius. Wis has only a fraction the effect of SP (and little other benefit once you're into the soft cap), why would you ever prefer this? And probably the most obvious, strength of the earth? Why? Why?

    The idea that the talent trees give you choices is a mirage. Because some talents are so clearly superior, there's no real choice. There's the talents you need and then there's lots of filler. Shouldn't someone have made all the talents fairly balanced, and then gone back and balanced the trees against one another using the 36 passives? Can't someone do that now?

    I wish this game made better use of the community resources it has available. Trion, call Paradox, talk to Johan and learn from the masters.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorai View Post
    DPS:

    The root of the contention: DPS.

    Look at raid composition; conclusion? Most people want to pewpew. Look at Rogues and Warriors. Most of them cry Holy Hand Grenades if they lose 1% DPS or aren't in the top 5, and 90% of the time you hear, "great dps" but virtually never, "amazing healing" or "wow you support folks did an incredible job". Guilds and players are effectively judged by two factors:
    1. Do you stand in the fire?
    2. How hard can you pewpew?

    If you don't and the answer is 'really hard'--> pass go and collect 200$, massive kudos from your fellow players, and preferential access to phat loots.

    It's as simple as this, and why so many cleric players are upset.

    What makes it worse is that our DPS has been so terrible for so long that other callings (ohai Rogues, Warriors) have begun to take it for granted despite statements like Kervik's re: role equality across callings.

    I've been told that the goal of the admins is to "maintain a fun, welcoming and safe environment" on the forums. Well here's your wake-up call: when most of us can remember at least half a dozen times when we were told to "shut up and heal, you rolled a healing archetype" I am not having a fun, welcome and safe experience. I already can't queue for anything unless I'm the healer (insert another typical troll post: "omg you're sooo unlucky that you can queue instantly!") Well what if I heal for 20 hours a week for my guild and want to smash things in the face with a hammer to decompress? If a DPS goes ninja AFK to make a sandwich, it will be a little bit before anyone notices unless the group is moving very quickly or has someone glued to a parser. If I go AFK, the tank dies inside 15 seconds and everyone yells at me. If someone dies from being stupid, guess who gets yelled at for "letting them die"? Me! Sometimes I don't want to deal with that.

    SHUT UP AND HEAL.

    Next problem and what made us absolutely incensed is that when we were asked for feedback--we gave it. Volumes. Page upon page of what needed to be fixed, but for some reason the option that was selected was one which non-raiding Clerics, Rogues, and Warriors kept "offering" up and every single experienced high end raiding cleric repeatedly said was a bad idea... in spite of the reams of available math, data, theorycrafting, etc etc.

    We were told to "view the PTS changes on their own" and not as part of a more comprehensive package of fixes, and so we did: the result was massive outrage and subsequent censorship.

    We've been told that clerics will not receive a "major overhaul" (like every other calling has... including mages twice) so as to "avoid changing cleric playstyles". This is ANOTHER point that has a lot of us frothing at the mouth. Let me give you some examples of cleric playstyles:

    Shaman: 11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
    Druid: 11111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111111
    Cabalist: 211121112111211121112111211121112111211121112111
    Inquisitor: 3111121113111112111111311111211111211211131111

    We'd LOVE them to change. And we've said so, again and again in a staggering variety of ways. The learning curve of the current cleric DPS souls can barely be considered a "curve". It's more of an endless expanse of flatness after a 5 degree loading ramp designed for people who just can't stop looking at their cell phones while they walk.

    Changing them completely would only negate the 3 minutes or so of tinkering it took us to find the optimized rotation for the only viable DPS build that's still 30% behind while offering less general utility and one useful debuff.

    If you would like to know what is wrong with this and don't feel like reading the innumerable threads:

    Reparation provides a very low amount of an -icar's total healing. What amounts to a -70% healing debuff for what becomes a ~15-17% dps buff when we were already 30ish percent behind comes as a slap in the face.

    It basically makes heal/utility/damage hybrids totally non-viable, fails to address our primary concern: DPS equality, and will not scale with gear.

    How much more clearly can we possibly express this?
    First of all, Cleric is the hardest class to tweak. Small changes to the DPS can make a huge difference in PVP since you have so powerful healing souls. They have to make it right, if they dont - well you know whats gonna happen.

    As for the builds to use 1-3 buttons .. My INQ builds have 4 hotsbars full, and i use many different spells (mostly because i spend much of my time pvping) so macros wouldnt do much for me.

    Overall im quite pleased with my cleric. Sure mages and rouges do more damage but thats ok. I can kill plenty, while healing myself and my group so it cant be that bad.
    Last edited by z4oslo; 12-05-2011 at 07:27 AM.
    Can I have your mana?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by z4oslo View Post
    First of all, Cleric is the hardest class to tweak. Small changes to the DPS can make a huge difference in PVP since you have so powerful healing souls. They have to make it right, if they dont - well you know whats gonna happen.

    As for the builds to use 1-3 buttons .. My INQ builds have 4 hotsbars full, and i use many different spells (mostly because i spend much of my time pvping) so macros wouldnt do much for me.

    Overall im quite pleased with my cleric. Sure mages and rouges do more damage but thats ok. I can kill plenty, while healing myself and my group so it cant be that bad.
    I don't really see how though. Yes we're still pretty powerful as healers but we have to put all our points in healing souls, we can't dps worth a damn if we have decent healing. We CAN hybrid but that is in no way sufficient to keep us alive against even 1dpser focusing us.

    I either go full cabalist or warden/sent healer, I find hybrids pointless since I just pump out numbers instead of actually keeping people alive/killing enemies.

  8. #38
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    Not to flog a dead horse, but if you're:
    • Below L50
    • A fresh 50
    • Doing T1s/T2s
    • Entry-level raiding
    • PvP as a P7 or P8
    • Playing a cleric as one of your alts
    • Playing a cleric only part of the time and switching characters to tank, dps, or support

    ...you probably aren't going to see the same difficulties which a lot of us who ONLY play the game as high end non-PvP raiding clerics.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dorai View Post
    Not to flog a dead horse, but if you're:
    • Below L50
    • A fresh 50
    • Doing T1s/T2s
    • Entry-level raiding
    • PvP as a P7 or P8
    • Playing a cleric as one of your alts
    • Playing a cleric only part of the time and switching characters to tank, dps, or support

    ...you probably aren't going to see the same difficulties which a lot of us who ONLY play the game as high end non-PvP raiding clerics.
    ^ this. End game raiding as a cleric is where the issues talked about will pop up and they are undeniable unless you close your eyes when you play.

  10. #40
    Soulwalker BiscuitG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoguzo View Post
    Guys it's ok, this guy doesn't have any problems with his cleric.

    TRION you can close this thread now!
    Thanks, Lady! =)

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluelightt View Post
    If you aren't going to play why do you post you aren't playing in multiple threads everyday?
    I still do this. Why? Because I still have hopes that maybe Zibnik will wake up and fix my class. Until then I make checking the Rift forums every day or two to see what the news is, waiting for that big fix.

    "...But the gods of the Vigil intervened. Their messengers went among the fallen and Ascended the worthy, not for their virtue, but for their MIGHT! In you, they place their faith, their hope and their power. You are our salvation. YOU are a Guardian."

  12. #42
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    It would be nice if we got some sort of feedback along the lines of: "I hear you, the reason we're proceeding in this direction instead of the one all of you think would be better is....."

    Hell, recruit someone as the Cleric Community Punching Bag and talk to them until they have a feel for how things work on the dev end, then shoot them short PMs occasionally and let them talk to the rest of the community so it isn't a major time sink.

  13. #43
    Shadowlander VolbeatDK's Avatar
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    Seriously, clerics are the healing king. And the rest we are decent at. If you wanna be able to heal in dungeons and go smashing for rest i reccomend you roll a rogue or a mage really. Besides that, go solo in the dungeons they are quite easy to solo now, especialy with HK gear
    We always get yelled at and thats a fact. But since your an oldschool player in Everquest with the sweet hell levels, like myself you should know that all the games you played since then, thats what we get I have always been a cleric/priest or whatever name they got in games and I have never been treated nice.
    But here in Rift I actualy get told sometimes in WF's, nice healing mate! I love it!
    But clerics (my thoughts) were never intended to be one of the people being in the top 5 dps wise on raids. But if you build your cabalist spec wisely and have the HK dps gear I can tell you that you can do extremely more dmg with that soul than most people think.
    Main problem is that alot of people use macros and smash everything into it. But you loose loads of dps if you dont play cabalist the right way in the different contents/bosses.
    In pvp we are pretty much just a surviving battle tank that heal really well. That is fun too though

    Sorry if I mixed in to many of my thoughts here man. I just started typing and it would'nt stop lol <3

  14. #44
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    Attempting to take what you say seriously, but I can tell right off that you are pretty much exclusively a PvP player who never raids, barely does PvE content, and are already P8.

    Please see my earlier statement regarding "you won't see this if..."

  15. #45
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    Also of note: I don't care that my class is ePeen-friendly because I can go solo content I *MASSIVELY* outgear and outlevel.

    I want to perform well in a top-end raiding environment in the roles that are available to me.

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