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Thread: Ahov on AE healing range

  1. #16
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    Once again, my initial observation was not a complete analysis of our healing issues. We need to get a clear look at our AoE situation.

    1. Doctrine of Loyalty is the best aoe heal in the game, and is located in our tank tree.
    2. Doctrine of Loyalty costs 210 mana, while Healing Communion costs 339 (assuming proper point placement)
    3. Doctrine of Loyalty is instant cast, while Healing Communion requires serendipity for a short, but non-instant cast.
    4. The justicar tree offers infinite mana through Purpose.

    My proposed changes:


    *Reduce the cast time on Healing Communion to 1.5 seconds, and encourage serendipity procs through instant cast, but slightly weaker aoe heals (with a range of 15-20 meters). Healing communion now becomes instant after serendipity.
    *Increase the range of healing communion to 35 meters, and either reduce the mana cost or offer a mana return skill (non-combat).

    I have rethought the original idea behind nerfing DoL, and I find it unnecessary. With the above changes to healing communion, pure healing builds such as puri/sent and sent/warden would become more dynamic, perhaps to a point where you can use one less hybrid healer and convert them to a full dps. However, the option to use a hybrid justicar spec would still be available if deemed necessary.

  2. #17
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    They could also work on and improve 51 sent and warden so that's they outperform dol's healing.

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  3. #18
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    If we had a charge like system, they could have removed the cd from them, making them use on demand.

    However, they would need to heal on the first tick and not the second.
    Hmm.

    If they consumed mana per tick and start on the first tick I think that would be sufficient. It's mana draining so it won't be spammed, but it's quick and powerful that it's worth using.


    I dunno.

  4. #19
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    Considering how long cleric DPS has been an issue (since launch), I can't see this discrepancy being addressed any time in the near future. To be honest, I'd rather they stay away from the healing souls so we don't get another nerf to Serendipity, Overflow, or any other key healing ability. Or get turned into a state where it's 51 points or go home. Right now it's 32 Sentinel (for pure healers) for combat rez and Serendipity, and that's restricting enough.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by squafro View Post
    I'm very surprised with the recent trend in the forums of arguing to 'nerf DoL' by clerics of all people. Why would you shoot yourselves in the foot? I'm just at a loss for words.
    Ahov is one of those purists who thinks his class is ok or OP, no matter how broken it actually is. He posted a parse the other day where his combined dps/heals were significantly less than most of his raids pure DPS and where the DPS cleric was 11% behind the 2nd worst DPS in the raid as proof that clerics are more or less fine.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cobbler View Post
    Ahov is one of those purists who thinks his class is ok or OP, no matter how broken it actually is. He posted a parse the other day where his combined dps/heals were significantly less than most of his raids pure DPS and where the DPS cleric was 11% behind the 2nd worst DPS in the raid as proof that clerics are more or less fine.
    Troll some more; you're still bad.

    I did not say clerics are more or less fine. I said we needed a rough 20% increase to dps, which is what we're getting with the PTS changes. Maybe you should dispute my suggested changes in my previous post, instead of wasting a spot in this thread.

  7. #22
    Rift Chaser squafro's Avatar
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    One of the main arguments I see against DoL is people complaining that it is in the 'tank' tree.

    News Flash: Justicar is a healing tree as well as a tanking tree. Trion says so. The skill 'Mien of Honor' says so. Stop calling it a tank tree in regards to healing discussion, it's semantics at best and intentionally deceptive at worst.

    WHY would you want healing communion as the go-to aoe heal instead? And have its 1.5s cast bar/instant cast determined by a 40% serendipity proc, that is madness. You reduce a huge amount of clutch healing to rng. The following bosses strongly benefit from mobile non-cast aoe healing:
    • Luggodhan (xRotF)
    • Calyx the Ancient (xAP)
    • Rodiafel (xUCR)
    • Cyclorax (xCC)
    • Caelia the Stormtouched (xCC)
    • Countess Surin Skenobar (xFC)
    • Konstantin (xKB)
    • Guurloth (GP)
    • Isskal (DH)
    • Lord Greenscale (GSB)
    • Herald Gaurath (RoS)
    • Alsbeth (RoS)
    • Beruhast (RotP)
    • Murdantix (HK)
    • Zilas (HK)
    • Grugonim (HK)
    • Rune King Molinar (HK)
    • Akylios (HK)

    This list covers all tiers of endgame dungeons and more noticeably tends towards final-instance bosses than not. It is clear that Trion intended an instant-cast burst aoe heal to be in a raid healer's arsenal. Why do you think many guilds (if not all guilds) that were shard firsts on raid t1 content used DoL healers even before it was a smart target ability?

    If you choose healing communion as a 1.5s cast replacement, you have a stacking 60% chance of serendipity not proccing during movement heals, once that happens the player needs to stop moving in order to heal. Even with healer's haste and touch the light, you incapicitate raid healers with only a maximum of 5.75% of their overall gcds being guaranteed instant cast healing communions instead of the current 50% from icars (up to 60% of gcds can be DoLs from senticar).

    And sure you can force people to use it if you nerf the range of DoL. Which is crazy, because that one skill is the reason why many clerics still have raid spots in this game. If you force healing communion to be the aoe heal of choice, either
    1. Players will adapt to the DoL nerfs, even if it means tighter stacking on many encounters. Which could be done I guess, it only adds another layer of difficulty to several encounters including akylios, but makes all fights boring as hell stack-on-8-fests as I already mentioned.
    2. Players will rely on healing communion, making the above list of encounters harder than they currently are, with the chance of 0 cleric raid healing during movement phases. Adding unneccessary RNG is the absolute worst way to add difficulty to an encounter.

    If your real issues are problems with the pure healing trees, then please by all means suggest fixes for them, especially sentinel. But leave DoL nerf suggestions out of it. It is a necessary tool for the current state of many encounters.
    Last edited by squafro; 12-02-2011 at 02:15 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheridyn View Post
    Considering how long cleric DPS has been an issue (since launch), I can't see this discrepancy being addressed any time in the near future. To be honest, I'd rather they stay away from the healing souls so we don't get another nerf to Serendipity, Overflow, or any other key healing ability. Or get turned into a state where it's 51 points or go home. Right now it's 32 Sentinel (for pure healers) for combat rez and Serendipity, and that's restricting enough.
    That's the thing, at this point its 34/32 or go home, how is that any different than 51 or go home?

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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by squafro View Post

    WHY would you want healing communion as the go-to aoe heal instead? And have its 1.5s cast bar/instant cast determined by a 40% serendipity proc, that is madness. You reduce a huge amount of clutch healing to rng. The following bosses strongly benefit from mobile non-cast aoe healing:

    If you choose healing communion as a 1.5s cast replacement, you have a stacking 60% chance of serendipity not proccing during movement heals, once that happens the player needs to stop moving in order to heal. Even with healer's haste and touch the light, you incapicitate raid healers with only a maximum of 5.75% of their overall gcds being guaranteed instant cast healing communions instead of the current 50% from icars (up to 60% of gcds can be DoLs from senticar).

    And sure you can force people to use it if you nerf the range of DoL. Which is crazy, because that one skill is the reason why many clerics still have raid spots in this game. If you force healing communion to be the aoe heal of choice, either
    1. Players will adapt to the DoL nerfs, even if it means tighter stacking on many encounters. Which could be done I guess, it only adds another layer of difficulty to several encounters including akylios, but makes all fights boring as hell stack-on-8-fests as I already mentioned.
    2. Players will rely on healing communion, making the above list of encounters harder than they currently are, with the chance of 0 cleric raid healing during movement phases. Adding unneccessary RNG is the absolute worst way to add difficulty to an encounter.

    If your real issues are problems with the pure healing trees, then please by all means suggest fixes for them, especially sentinel. But leave DoL nerf suggestions out of it. It is a necessary tool for the current state of many encounters.
    You may want to actually read my previous post which addresses your concerns.

    I'm recommending the introduction of slightly weaker instant cast aoe heals which can proc serendipity for healing communion and make it instant cast as well. Honestly, it would add a bit of flair to healing instead of using 1-2 buttons. You would have to pay a bit more attention.

    I'm also not calling for a nerf to DoL.
    Last edited by Ahov; 12-02-2011 at 02:34 PM.

  10. #25
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    There's a bigger issue here than any of these:
    • Our tanking tree has the best heal in the game with unlimited mana
    • Our pure healing builds go OOM quickly and have trouble with burst and movement
    • Our other AoEs have too small a radius

    While these are certainly issues, the bigger picture is that everything in this game considers healing an afterthought. Endurance/HP do not scale very well with tiers of gear (4500 from ~fresh 50 to ~6000ish? in full relic + endurance PA). Our heals scale quite well though. Yes, DoL is and has been overpowered since it was made smart. So we have a real dilemma: we overheal the **** out of this game.

    No seriously, look at DoL. If it hits for roughly 1300, then in a normal inquisicar or senticar build with access to +40% crit, we're talking 2470 on a crit. Say in raid you have some 45% crit chance, that means the expected heal for each DoL per target is 1827, giving us 18270 healing on each GCD.

    Now if you go high enough into justicar to get LMR, your conviction gain rate goes through the roof. But inquisicar with high inquis can abuse SH procs and BoJ to get fast convictions without LMR. In any case, if even it costs 1 GCD to gain each conviction, we're talking 18270/3s = 6090 maximum possible HPS, not counting reparation. What... the... ****. (and yes, this can be sustained for a 4-5 minute fight, especially in shamicar builds).

    If you look at the numbers, our pure healing builds can't sustain healing like that. But they still overheal. While doing no damage. Senticar/shamicar builds can even spam healing communion back-to-back for 5+ minutes straight with a flare, eating pots, and purpose + ageless. Our hybrid justicar-y builds are the only ones without mana issues and become massive overhealing machines. But our pure healing souls continue to rot and suck except for tank healing.

    That leads us to the fundamental issue we're seeing in rift: there is nothing in this game that even comes close to challenging that kind of healing. Except PvP where you can have a SC and 3 cabs blowing up 20 people. No PvE content in this game is actually challenging to heal. It is literally 100% designed around mechanics and DPS. This means we really don't even want that 1 pure healing cleric healing the tank, we want EVERYONE doing DPS. Preferably the most DPS possible. If a single cleric could solo-heal sicaron with more DPS than that chloro, that'd be preferable (it's not possible because we don't heal through reparation, though). The design of this game ignores that healing even exists. Our healing souls suck and have sucked for a long time (no good BR, mana inefficiency, massive overhealing everywhere, shields when only 2 fights in the entire game feature healing debuffs). It's even worse when more DPS means the healing requirements go down. Look at Grugonim. If your DPS is really, really good, the AoE damage + raid wide health reduction isn't an issue. If your DPS sucks, everyone either gets 1-shot or you need a ****ton of shield procs. If your tanks are beefy, you don't need purifiers. Etc.

    Healing in this game is too easy. There's no need for something as completely overpowered as DoL. There's no need for pure healers almost ever, even. Chloros put out fantastic raid and single target heals and can switch between the two very rapidly. And yet in this proposed patch, we have Zinbik nerfing our tank's ability to, while he's not sucking at tanking, swap to MoH and help heal because the cooldown is being more than doubled (instead of only applying to MoA to prevent DPSing then stance dancing to MoH to heal and back again in 6 seconds).

    The fact that healing scales so well but HP doesn't even damages PvP and now we have rogues & warriors running around proccing 50% heal debuffs on everyone to combat the issue. It's so obvious that healing is never even considered except as a "hey, we should nerf that" in the design/balance of this game. And if you've seen my post about valor + healing, you know that mitigation makes healing even more effective. So you have massive overheals + overly effective heals + no HP scaling + content where "high damage" is a 5k hit to ~10 people that's healed within 1 GCD. If the new 20 man is to make healing important again and stop punishing classes that can't compete in pure DPS and forcing all heals to be DPS, clerics will become less useful than they already are. I sincerely hope that Adam makes some of those fights actually need 3-4 pure healing clerics rather than 15 DPSers.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 12-02-2011 at 02:49 PM.

  11. #26
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    That's an epic post. Can we get it framed and put in Zinbik's cubicle? :P

    I get the feeling its a bit late to do anything about this though. How can you fix the fact that a Sentinel can single-target heal for 150% of the health my inquisitor has? Any kind of fix to that will need all kinds of tweaking and rebalancing other places. And Rift is simply too far into its development cycle now.

    I don't see how new content will be any different. The only way you could require 4 raid healers is for all 20 people in the raid to be taking 50% of their health in damage every GCD. Or encounters that require 3-4 tanks taking damage all the time I guess. Would be tricky to make doable, but not impossible.

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valdis43 View Post
    That's an epic post. Can we get it framed and put in Zinbik's cubicle? :P

    I get the feeling its a bit late to do anything about this though. How can you fix the fact that a Sentinel can single-target heal for 150% of the health my inquisitor has? Any kind of fix to that will need all kinds of tweaking and rebalancing other places. And Rift is simply too far into its development cycle now.

    I don't see how new content will be any different. The only way you could require 4 raid healers is for all 20 people in the raid to be taking 50% of their health in damage every GCD. Or encounters that require 3-4 tanks taking damage all the time I guess. Would be tricky to make doable, but not impossible.
    I've toyed with some ideas. I personally really like a raid buff like Voice that increases everyone's endurance by 200% or something. Then 12k+ hits start nailing the raid and 35k+ hits on the tank. Good luck healing that, chloros.

    Having fights where healing is extremely challenging would also make it more difficult to manage DPS checks, since sure you could overheal it but suddenly you can't kill the boss. One problem that this kind of fight would have is that some of our healing souls that suck would need to be made less sucky. So it won't happen.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 12-02-2011 at 03:24 PM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Narfalicious View Post
    That's the thing, at this point its 34/32 or go home, how is that any different than 51 or go home?
    Of course you need the Sentinel right now and that's definitely a limitation. But at least it's giving you useful abilities for the points you spend in the soul (AoE cleanse, Touch the Light, Healing Invocation, Healer's Covenant, etc.). Unlike, say, Shaman or Druid where you have to spend 51 points in the soul, and the last 20 points you spend in the soul are pretty much purely for ability scaling.
    Last edited by Sheridyn; 12-02-2011 at 03:31 PM.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sheridyn View Post
    Of course you need the Sentinel right now and that's definitely a limitation. But at least it's giving you useful abilities for the points you spend in the soul (AoE cleanse, Touch the Light, Healing Invocation, Healer's Covenant, etc.). Unlike, say, Shaman or Druid where you have to spend 51 points in the soul, and the last 20 points you spend in the soul are pretty much purely for ability scaling.
    Purifier has that scaling on their shields, and that doesn't make them better. I'm sure there is a way to do it so both options are viable, but neither is so far ahead of the other to make it useless. Now we just have to hope they figure it out.

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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    Healing in this game is too easy. There's no need for something as completely overpowered as DoL. There's no need for pure healers almost ever, even.
    Hahahaha, oh wait? You're serious? Let me laugh even harder! Please don't turn this into some sort of elitist thread.

    The fact that -icars have a max of 6-7k hps sustained is irrelevant. From my experience, if a senticar is healing over 2kish in any encounter, you don't have enough raid healing or your other raid healers are slacking. The highest senticar hps parses I have ever seen are on wipes because one of the other healers forgot to change specs before the tank pulled.

    You say that nothing in rift is a challenge to heal. This is somewhat true in a well-organised dedicated group of people, but progression has always had its challenges.

    Anyway, some options to make healing more challenging/interesting are:
    1. Nerf the best raid healing skill (DoL)
    2. Change boss mechanics to favor a variety of healing talents or an increased number of healers needed.
    3. Increase raid-wide endurance so that burst-overhealing isn't the only viable solution
    4. Fix the itemization issues of pure-healing gear to make it a more attractive option.
    5. Overhaul the pure-healing trees to make them a more attractive option for PvE raid healing.

    A DoL nerf would be completely unneccessary if one or more of the other changes were made. I'll admit I don't know the best way to implement changes 2-5, but I've seen some great ideas in this forum and believe that they can be done.

    Nerfing DoL is the easy way out for the developer, but makes everyone elses life in a progressing guild harder (which is going to be all of us come the next tier of content).

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