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  Click here to go to the first Rift Team post in this thread.   Thread: Cleric DPS Feedback

  1. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjah View Post
    With mien: 1000 + 1000 * 0.5 + 1000 + 1000 * 0.2 = 1700 damage
    I got a bit cross-eyed here, this is the correct equation:

    With mien: 1000 + 1000*0.5 + 1000*0.2 = 1700

  2. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    Scaling means as x increase, y goes up proportionally.
    If that 20% was on output, then yes you would have some semblance of a point.

    This buff, however, does not do that, qtpie.
    I meant exactly what does he find amusing in a person that thinks it actually is a sensible buff, anyway must have not been clear.

  3. #498
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    Because anyone who thinks it's a sensible buff is completely clueless.

  4. #499
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    You need to understand how +% damage abilities work in this game.

    They are collectively added before finally calculating the output damage. Not multiplicatively. This is why builds are not receiving a 20% increase in DPS (not even close, in some cases, and RNG pushes them close to 20% for those of you parsing, do it for 20 minutes).

    For instance. I just used vex with just a hammer (1025 SP) on the PTS at 51 point inquisitor (nothing else). The only modifiers to vex are Ritual of Judgment increasing SP contribution by 65%. This works as expected (by impacting SP contribution only), bringing it to roughly 0.507 damage / SP.

    The base @ 51 is 373 because 373 = floor(1.5*249) (the base without Mental Resilience, and yes, it's floored, which is fail).

    Since we also have MR, the damage of the SP contributed portion is increased by 50% as well (important: the sp contribution is NOT improved by 50%, this is huge). So the base is 373 + 1.5*1025*0.507 = 1152.512, that makes each tick 192.

    This is accurate, take a look: http://i43.tinypic.com/a425js.png

    Now what MoA does is increases the linear amount of this by 20%. So instead of the base being 373, it's actually floor(1.7*249) = 423, and the SP contribution portion is increased by 20% on top of the 50% (additively, not multiplicatively). That gives us dmg = 423 + 1.7*1025*0.507 = 1306.448. This gives me ticks of 218 (proof: http://i39.tinypic.com/21boye9.png).

    It should be noted that 218/192 = 1.135, so we're getting 13.5% more damage. This is not 20% more damage.

    Now let's look at CP on top of that we'll have total damage = floor(1.85*249) + 1.85*1025*0.507 = 460 + 961.399 = 1421.399. That gives us ticks of 237 (more proof, you should trust me at this point, because I'm right: http://i44.tinypic.com/27xpb2f.jpg)

    Again, 237/218 = 1.087, for a 8.7% increase, not 15%. It only gets worse, the more additive damage increases stack on here. Add in CS and AoA and you get even worse scaling on each of those. And 237/192 = 23% increase with CP + MoA rather than 35%.


    Now to some basic math. When we say that something like a +20% doesn't scale (like here), we mean that it increases our base damage by a constant amount, rather than scaling linearly with SP. This is synonymous with increasing the y-intercept of a line but not increasing the slope. The line is higher from the X-axis, sure, but it doesn't increase over time (in Rift terms: with gear). Take a look at these graphs:

    http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...m+x+%3D+0+to+5

    The 3 close together you see are scaling pretty much identically. This is rogue, mage, and warrior (please understand this isn't literal, it's merely for demonstration, their scaling may very well not be so close, but they receive patches to fix it regularly, we don't). The one that's got a smaller slope is growing less quickly than the other 3. As time goes on (think of the X axis as tier of gear, with 1 = T1, 2 = T2, 3 = R1, 4 = R2, etc). This gap is increasing as a simple mathematical fact. Solving our DPS problem would be equivalent to solving the base problem here (the slope of the line not matching the other 3). The solution zinbik is providing is like increasing our Y-intercept like this:

    http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i...m+x+%3D+0+to+8

    While that makes us more balanced around R2 (4), it doesn't scale. We're still getting worse. But it also has the potential to make us more viable in DPS than others in lower tiers of gear. Not something we're really interested in doing.

    In short: this change is terrible. I will be posting a complete and comprehensive review of the patch, parses, effect on DPS, and a lot more in a thread soon enough. It will include insight into the problem as well as viable solutions to the problem and how to balance out 51 point vs hybrids so that all are viable. It will also try to balance out each of our DPS souls and point to issues with healing scalability as well as current dungeon design and itemization. Clerics are in a completely broken place right now, to say the very least.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 11-26-2011 at 06:22 PM.

  5. #500
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    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    A lot of really smart stuff.
    Cheers! Thanks for putting the math down for everyone. You would think a MMO developer dedicated to game balance could at least put some of his numbers down in a spreadsheet, look at the math and reach the same conclusions.

    Now I must go weep for another well-reasoned and thoughtfully constructed post in the cleric forum, where intelligent posts directed to our devs go to die.

    /sad

  6. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    LOTSA MATH
    How would this math translate if the % damage was replaced by % spellpower. Break some figures down.

    ie 15% increase, 20% increase SP.
    Last edited by Undrsiege; 11-27-2011 at 12:55 PM.

  7. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Undrsiege View Post
    How would this math translate if the % damage was replaced by % spellpower. Break some figures down.

    ie 15% increase, 20% increase SP.
    Well that would impact healing and tanking significantly.

    But it would increase damage by SP contribution. It depends on the scaling of the ability. It wouldn't fix the issue because it doesn't scale (it starts off bad then gets better because the ratio of SP contribution to base damage gets large, but it has a limit of the initial value). If a "buff" depends on the scaling of an ability, it will not scale in the future.

    For instance, let's say a tier of gear adds 400 SP. Let's assume an ability has a base damage of 400 and a scaling of 0.2 damage / SP. Another has a damage of 300 and a scaling of 0.4 damage / SP.

    Then the increase of 400 SP adds 80 damage to the first ability and 160 to the second. Now if we consider both of these types of buffs, this is what happens, assuming a base of 1000 SP:

    Legend:
    X1 = damage by scaling with +20% damage (with no other modifiers)
    X2 = damage by scaling with +20% SP (with no other modifiers)

    dmgABase = 1000*0.2 + 400 = 600
    dmgBBase = 1000*0.4 + 200 = 600

    dmgA1 = 1.2(1000*0.2 + 400) = 720 (+120 over base, 20% increase)
    dmgA2 = 1.2*1000*0.2 + 400 = 640 (+40 over base, 6.66% increase)

    dmgB1 = 1.2(1000*0.4 + 200) = 720 (+120 over base, 20% increase)
    dmgB2 = 1.2*1000*0.4 + 200 = 680 (+80 over base, 13.33% increase)

    Now looking at the same calculations AFTER the tier upgrade of +400 SP:
    dmgABase' = 1400*0.2 + 400 = 680
    dmgBBase' = 1400*0.4 + 200 = 760

    dmgA1' = 1.2(1400*0.2 + 400) = 816 (+136 over base, 20% increase)
    dmgA2' = 1.2*1400*0.2 + 400 = 736 (+56 over base, 8.24% increase)

    dmgB1' = 1.2(1400*0.4 + 200) = 912 (+152 over base, 20% increase)
    dmgB2' = 1.2*1400*0.4 + 200 = 872 (+112 over base, 14.74% increase)

    What you should take from this is that the second ability is growing more quickly. Let's fast forward to 2 more tiers ahead (2200 SP):
    dmgABase'' = 2200*0.2 + 400 = 840
    dmgBBase'' = 2200*0.4 + 200 = 1080

    dmgA1'' = 1.2(2200*0.2 + 400) = 1008 (+168 over base, 20% increase)
    dmgA2'' = 1.2*2200*0.2 + 400 = 928 (+88, 10.5% increase)

    dmgB1'' = 1.2(2200*0.4 + 200) = 1296 (+216 over base, 20% increase)
    dmgB2'' = 1.2*2200*0.4 + 200 = 1256 (+176 over base, 16.3% increase)


    Now look at this trend. Ability B scales better. Ability A has a larger base. Let ability A describe our current abilities (poor scaling). Let ability B describe our abilities after a proper buff. Now let's consider dmgA1 and dmgA2 compared to dmgBBase over the tiers. That is, let's compare increasing the ability A by 20% and adding 20% SP versus upping the scaling on the ability (note, A and B do the same damage at 1000 SP, by design, this is a pointwise balance).

    Tier 1:
    (dmgBBase, dmgA1, dmgA2)
    (600, 720, 640)

    Tier 2:
    (760, 816, 736)

    Tier 4:
    (1080, 1008, 928)

    Whoops. Looks like the better scaling ability is getting better, faster than the other two. Both of those represent ideas like increasing +% spellpower or +% damage (at the best possible case) on our current abilities. This is complete proof that these don't scale. What does scale is changing the SP scaling on the abilities (either directly or with a passive). This is the only solution that does scale.

    This is a contrived example, the actual differences are quite a bit more exaggerated, especially when you consider raid buffs. And the +X% contribution becomes much smaller. For instance, BoJ has a scaling of 0.4 per SP, when it should really be closer to 0.53 to scale with the other callings.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 11-27-2011 at 02:08 PM.

  8. #503
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    So in your opinion changing the mien from %damage to %spellpower would not work, and allow for better scaleability?

  9. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    (Ramblings of a pro.)
    Trion, please hire this man.

  10. #505
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjah View Post
    Trion, please hire this man.
    I see more expertise / Willingness to discuss/ passion for the cleric class from JMerliN then I ever have from Zinbik and that is sad.

  11. #506
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    So basically from all this feedback Cleric are getting the one idea that was continually shot down everytime someone brought it up before and during the existance of this thread. Secondly the current stance in to not do anymore overhauls of souls.

    Does anyone else think Cleric got the shaft being the last calling examine during this shift in design plan?
    I do not think I am the only one who would say that it would be better for there to be an anouncement that Trion made a mistake and they do not intend for Cleric to dps on par with the other callings and end the act right there that means no more false hope, no more waiting on patch X.Y to fix what is going one.

    I think the Cleric community get the point you want us to be the healers of this game, but do not want to lose the subscription that the non-healer focused Clerics provide.

    Might want to rework content design instead of calling design might be good to see a raid that requires more healers instead of the take the bare-bones minimum to squeeze out that next little bit of dps at least then there is more reason for bringing 4-5 clerics instead of maybe 1-3.
    Either that or just let chrolomancers stack well show how little the cleric now brings to the raid group.

    This isn't whining, or a plea for help, just a tired observation of where the game is and is going. And further reason to never play an option in an online game (MMORPG) that can heal again with the idea that it will be able to do anything else.
    Supporter of different, but equal soul design.
    Just waiting for the next infraction and my banning, but at least my solution isn't "you are bad and l2play".

  12. #507
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    It would be quite easy if they simply stated the goal of clerics.
    If healing should be the focal point, then whats with the 3 nerfs to icars?
    Why take away druids aoe heals instead of increasing their healing capabilities, including that of its pet?

    Why no emphasis on MoH like MoL?

    Why no distinction or homogenization to solve the warden/senti/puri/icar debacle.

    Why have 4 dps souls, when at end of the day, we only need 2, ranged and melee, druids and cabs are pretty much unnecessary if dps is not a focal point, and since druids and cabs do not that great a icar, no need for them in a soul that should be healer focused..

    If DPS should be part of its skill set, why the reluctance of an overhaul? Digging deep and cleaning up the residual crap from past versions of this game and bring them up to date?

    In any case, something needs to be done, or said, or something, Because the point of clerics, are starting to look archaic, and unfortunately the class it self has been built way too modern for an archaic goal.

  13. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinjah View Post
    Trion, please hire this man.
    I doubt they can afford to make it worth his while. They might be able to contract him for his spare time assuming he doesn't have a family yet. ;)

  14. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    Well that would impact healing and tanking significantly.

    - snip -

    This is a contrived example, the actual differences are quite a bit more exaggerated, especially when you consider raid buffs. And the +X% contribution becomes much smaller. For instance, BoJ has a scaling of 0.4 per SP, when it should really be closer to 0.53 to scale with the other callings.
    Basically, the question becomes: How do we fix the scaling without impacting tanking and healing (Tanking has its own scaling issues, though)? Perhaps I'm oversimplifying, but can't we just adjust the base damage of an ability and it's spellpower coefficient? Lower our base damage, increase the gain from spellpower; tweak until we're at proper levels of damage.

    It's not about adding a new buff, like the Mien. It's about adjusting the abilities themselves. That'll solve our scaling, and then we can work on our lack of synergy.

  15. #510
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    Stupid edit timer.

    It's worth mentioning that MoA /does/ improve spellpower scaling. (I'm basing this on my interpretation of the math posted earlier, if my equation is wrong, please correct me)

    Effectively, an attack comes down to: x(base + y*sp) OR x*base + x*y*sp

    Where x is the buffs to the attack (MoA, AoA, Clinging Spirits, Corporeal Punishment, etc), and y is the spellpower coefficient of the spell. Increasing x (IE, adding in MoA) WILL increasing the scaling by increasing the multiplier to SP. The problem is that we can't just bump up our base damage and scaling a little bit. We need to tweak them both, individually, to find the proper balance that will get Cleric's damage to scale competitively in raids.

    Basically, if you're going to avoid an overhaul of our abilities, change base and y. But x doesn't need too much tweaking.

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