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Thread: Pure Healers vs DoL: Why are clerics being punished for healing dedication?

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser Lunacresia's Avatar
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    Default Pure Healers vs DoL: Why are clerics being punished for healing dedication?

    With the advent of 1.5 and changes being made to clerics, I'm wondering what way Trion will go with clerics.

    I recently started playing my cleric again and found that the most disturbing thing about the cleric class is the fact that healers are being punished for dedicating themselves to healing and becoming "inflexible."

    One of the major issues with clerics and pure healers right now is the fact that the single most effective raid AoE healing builds rely on DoL. While I like DoL and the synergy it provides, the effectiveness of DoL over raw healing trees is absolutely absurd.

    Right now there is so much AoE damage in raids, sometimes the only reason we pull through it all is because we toss more inquisicars and senticars at the problem. DoL is way more efficient and powerful than healing communion.

    Herein lies the problem with dedicated healers and purist builds. A pure sentinel healer or a healer that is actually trying to use the healing trees and healing gear in order to perform their role is overshadowed by a focus stacked DoL healer.

    What makes no sense is that, purist builds contribute no dps to the group, dedicated healing gear provides no focus whatsoever, yet when these clerics attempt to build for pure healing, they are completely and utterly outperformed by a DPS BASED HEALER THAT IS RELYING ON A TANKING TREE IN ORDER TO HEAL.

    Does this make any sense? Purist healers sacrifice all of their DPS and have gear specifically designed for their class that has no focus due to its dedication to healing. Yet, when clerics take this path, they are punished because they fall short in comparison to the massive amount of healing a dps-based DoL healer is capable of outputting with twice the mana efficiency.

    While I like DoL and wouldn't want to see it die, it makes no sense why DEDICATED purists healers are under performing against healers that are using dps and tanking trees in order heal.

    With dedicated healing gear, dedicated trees to AoE healing (like sentinel), there is no reason why pure healing tree healers should not be outperforming the DoL healer.

    The fact that a healer has to SKIP all of the spellpower based non-focus healing gear and create an entirely new set of gear based on spellcrit and focus just to be a competitive healer is totally absurd.

    There needs to be a major shift in the way dedicated healers perform. Because they contribute no DPS to the group and their gear has no focus, why should they be underperforming against a justicar healer who is pushing twice the healing numbers, never running out of mana, having no cast time on his heals, and who is also contributing 300-400 dps in addition to completely dusting the dedicated healer on the meter?

    The way healing is setup right now makes no sense in regards to the dedicated healing trees. Raid encounters encompass so much party-wide damage that almost every healer save for 1 dedicated tank healer must have methods of AoE healing in order to keep up with the damage.

    Right now a dedicated healer simply cannot contribute even a fraction of what a DoL healer can outside of tank healing.

    Something needs to change in order to allow pure healers to be competitive when healing the group outside of just the main tank.

    Right now healing, the way it works, and the fact that clerics have to rely on a secondary DPS gear set and tanking trees to just to keep up with party healing is completely borked.

    It feels like dedicated healers are being punished for trying to be healers, and this makes no sense whatsoever.

  2. #2
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    1) DoL is NOT tank healing, it is AoE healing. In comparison we do a chloro's job.
    2) I've NO problem competing with or out-healing DoL healers on many AoE fights (Rune King Molinar comes to mind, in which I play either 51ward or ward/sent, neither have an issue topping meters).
    3) Meters aren't everything.
    4) Sentinel is very much another version of a tank heal spec. A Warden is more geared toward AoE healing.
    5) Chloro's don't tank heal as well as a cleric does (in most scenarios), but THEY can DPS too.

  3. #3
    Telaran Ysandre's Avatar
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    I'd like to see a DoL healer keep up the tank with a raid boss punching him in the face.

    Like someone said, a DoL healer is like a chloro with their AoE buff. Group heals awesome. Those 'healing purists' still have main tank healing to do. DoL is just another AoE heal tool that can be used. Like a bard with bigger heals and no buffs.

    Blah blah.
    Mage Class Lead of <Arisen> - Wolfsbane
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    One difference between DoL healers and pure healing specs... DoL REQUIRES a mob to beat on. If a cleric doesn't have convictions, they cannot cast DoL. Not only that, but whenever they build a conviction, they have to wait for a full GCD before casting a heal.

    -icars are basically a better version of a raid healing chloro without a lot of the utility. They can pump out healing when mobs are around, but when they aren't, they are basically 0 DPS and 0 HPS.

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    Rift Chaser Lunacresia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sokanon View Post
    1) DoL is NOT tank healing, it is AoE healing. In comparison we do a chloro's job.
    2) I've NO problem competing with or out-healing DoL healers on many AoE fights (Rune King Molinar comes to mind, in which I play either 51ward or ward/sent, neither have an issue topping meters).
    3) Meters aren't everything.
    4) Sentinel is very much another version of a tank heal spec. A Warden is more geared toward AoE healing.
    5) Chloro's don't tank heal as well as a cleric does (in most scenarios), but THEY can DPS too.
    Description of the Sentinel from the RIFT main site:

    "Sentinels are defensive clerics who excel at group support. Their divine powers aid the weak and ensure that everyone in their group lives through the fray."

    To my knowledge, 51 ward does not compete at all with a an equally geared DoL healer. Honestly, dedicated clerics do not have the kind of instant heal group sustainability options when compared to a DoL healer. Warden group healing, while not bad, is extremely slow when compared to the instant cast DoL which can boost up the whole group with the 60% crit bonus.

    On fights like Hylas, where mass amounts of AoE damage from fracture pour into the group, or anytime a raid takes heavy amounts of damage, DoL is instant and can boost the entire group up in literally 1-2 seconds. A warden outside of downpour, has absolutely nothing that can compete with that.

    Now, DoL is a good synergy build. I'm not saying kill DoL. But the fact of the matter is that clerics that build for pure healing and actually take the pure healing gear will not have the focus for DoL. Outside of not having the ability to use DoL, they can't hit enemy targets and deal dps. They also can't gain access to energy management abilities that rely on focus in order to land (like aggressive renewal). Outside of tank healing, pure healers don't really have much.

    What I'm saying is that pure healers suffer from extreme handicaps for not having that focus and for dedicating themselves to healing. As stated by the Trion site, the Sentinel was designed to be a group healer but ultimately fails due to it's lack of energy management, cast times, and underperformance compared to a DoL healer.

    Pure healers do not have very competitive options as group healers, and they need to do more than just tank heal to contribute to a party. They also deal ZERO damage, which makes their contribution through healing even more important because they have to shore up for the deficiency in damage they are causing to the group.

    What I'm saying is that purist healers that are using the healing trees need SOLID GROUP HEALING OPTIONS that are on par, if not better, than DoL.

    For a cleric that is 100% dedicated to healing and dealing absolutely no damage, why shouldn't they be competitive, if not the best healing option for a group?


    ------


    As it stands right now, if you don't build a heavy focus set and gear up for DoL, the only thing you are good for in a raid is tank healing. I'm just saying that it makes no sense why pure healers don't have competitive group healing options.
    Last edited by Lunacresia; 09-12-2011 at 08:40 AM.

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    Soulwalker
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    Because as it is now, you can`t rly get 2 raid aoe pure healers and lose the dps for those 2 spots. So many boss fights that needs big raid dps. If you don't want to get focus gear along with healing one, it is only your problem. You still have the 2 tank healing spot available. or is it because you`re jelly on our big HPS while your tank overheal don`t show in graphics. Remember you are a cleric, u can get ANY of the 5-6 viable raid specs and go with it.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    I agree in part with the OP. I do find it weird that a dedicated healer is out performed by a tank spec healer, and by bards and chloro's. I haven't found a satisfactory raid heal build that will out perform those specs, and if we're no dps'ing, then we should be doing twice as much healing in my mind. Having said that, I'm not precious about my class, and if I can contribute more healing to the raid with an *icar build, than with 51 warden/sentinal then I'll damn well do it, who cares if it's conceptually correct or not

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunacresia View Post
    To my knowledge, 51 ward does not compete at all with a an equally geared DoL healer. Honestly, dedicated clerics do not have the kind of instant heal group sustainability options when compared to a DoL healer. Warden group healing, while not bad, is extremely slow when compared to the instant cast DoL which can boost up the whole group with the 60% crit bonus.

    On fights like Hylas, where mass amounts of AoE damage from fracture pour into the group, or anytime a raid takes heavy amounts of damage, DoL is instant and can boost the entire group up in literally 1-2 seconds. A warden outside of downpour, has absolutely nothing that can compete with that.

    .
    Then the warden is not very good at managing cooldowns and HoTs. Our healers and hybrids are equally as geared. A warden has Downpour, Healing Flood, Healing Showers, (ward/sent adds HC), and Tidal surge+Ripple. Yeah our burst may not be good, but 99% of encounters have scripted abilities, which come at specific times. Being able to pre-hot the raid is a HUGE skill that a Warden should possess, though I admit most do not. A well timed TS+Ripple HoT stack combo can EASILY keep a raid from dropping... add in the Downpour and Healing Showers and you've only increased your effectiveness.

    It's the player, not the class that is bad.
    Last edited by Sokanon; 09-12-2011 at 09:59 AM.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple
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    Warden efficiency is crippled by the 5-target limit of almost all its spells, which is significant when you consider that much of Warden healing ends up being over-healing that could've been fulfilled by a Bard who is also giving the raid buffs, mana regen, etc. Yeah, your HPS will be impressive (I was doing ~1.2k in T2 gear back when I fielded 51 Warden), but most of that healing isn't the sort of healing that would keep a raid alive - and worse of all they're not even that efficient because of the 5-target limit, which means you have to half the efficiency of all Warden heals compared to DoL.

    The main benefit of running a 51 Warden or Warden/Sentinel is that you'll be able to tank heal in addition to raid heal. Warden single-target heal is better than people give it credit for, and is quite efficient as long as there aren't massive heal debuffs that require a Purifier-based build.

    But for AoE healing, burst and sustained, you can't beat DoL at the moment. Nothing like doing 600+ DPS and 1500+ HPS at the same time.

    If they made Warden heals 10-target like the rest of the AoE healers, I'd say give it another shot.

    Until then, it's hard to see the advantages of 51 Warden in raid healing.
    Last edited by Etadanik; 09-12-2011 at 10:15 AM.

  10. #10
    Prophet of Telara cwharland's Avatar
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    DoL is awesome and we run 1 - 2 duracell clerics in all of our raids for just that purpose. However, if you roll a cleric you're gonna have minimum 2 sets of gear and most likely three. So pure healers aren't being "punished" on gear they simply have a different stat priority (SP over crit for example).

    As far as people saying no pure healer is as good as a duracell...well that's just plain wrong. 51 Warden is good but honestly purifier/sentinel is even better.

    Surging flames yourself and sit in the middle of the raid spamming restorative flames and healing communion. You only need to cast 1 HC to put out as much healing at 2 DoLs. Yeah you run into mana problems on a 10 minute fight but your healing output is huge compared to a duracell.

    Plus, puri/sent can actually tank heal. A great example of this spec if Uruluuk. Run two healers (chloro and puri/sent). For the first 70% you spam RF on tank to help the chloro and use HC on crushing boulders. Below 30% you spam healing communion and win. We used to run duracell, chloro, cleric (heal spec) on uruluuk till we realized there's no need to run dura on that fight for aoe heals. You can easily top meters with that spec and meters don't handle the puri shields well so your actual contribution is much higher.

    TLDR:
    As OP as DoL and duracell is...puri/sent is just as good and far more versatile. You have more than one gearset as a cleric anyway so you're not punished.

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    A few things that come to my mind while reading this thread:

    1. I disagree 51 Warden is a viable spec. No encounters needs "slow, but steady" heals, no encounter damages only 5 raid members. Direct heals top all raid members off before your HoTs can even tick twice. The amount of "steady" heals that are needed can easily come from 2 x-icars, Surging Flames or whatever. If you top HPS with Warden, you have no x-icars that do it right. Warden is useless! I always have a nice laugh over statements like

    A Warden is more geared toward AoE healing.


    2. DoL doesnt really outperform HC. Yes, it is more mana efficient. Yes, you can heal while running. No, mana is not an issue in a raid. No, it does not heal for more, HC is the bigger heal. With Serependity, it virtually has the same "cast" time of one GCD. If no Serependity is up for the first HC, you can use TTL or Divine Call. No convictions are needed to heal and you have tons of utility from CRez to Surging Flames. HC is targetable and has higher range.
    Last edited by Lowbob; 09-12-2011 at 10:46 AM.

  12. #12
    General of Telara
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    DoL might be a bit OP atm but in the end it's specs that only have that: fast healing (assuming you had time to build convictions before needing to heal) & unlimited mana (more or less true depending on the spec)

    If any combination of warden/sentinel could get the same mana regen (and not have an icar sniping heals in before a 0.5s HC can land), they'd do the job just as good/better. And with all the added utility (with just the less of more or less significant damage an icar brings)

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    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    I noticed this morning that these are my 5 specs I have settled on for 1.5, after trying dozens:

    Justicar
    Inquisicar (PvE)
    Inquisicar (PvP)
    Senticar
    Cabicar

    To be honest, I feel gimp if I ever make a build without 11+ Justicar any more.

  14. #14
    Rift Chaser Lunacresia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lowbob View Post
    A few things that come to my mind while reading this thread:

    1. I disagree 51 Warden is a viable spec. No encounters needs "slow, but steady" heals, no encounter damages only 5 raid members. Direct heals top all raid members off before your HoTs can even tick twice. The amount of "steady" heals that are needed can easily come from 2 x-icars, Surging Flames or whatever. If you top HPS with Warden, you have no x-icars that do it right. Warden is useless! I always have a nice laugh over statements like





    2. DoL doesnt really outperform HC. Yes, it is more mana efficient. Yes, you can heal while running. No, mana is not an issue in a raid. No, it does not heal for more, HC is the bigger heal. With Serependity, it virtually has the same "cast" time of one GCD. If no Serependity is up for the first HC, you can use TTL or Divine Call. No convictions are needed to heal and you have tons of utility from CRez to Surging Flames. HC is targetable and has higher range.

    In the -icar spec, DoL heals for 60% more on a crit. Healer's Covenant does too, but it's so mana inefficient you would never really use HC if you have a conviction. The amount that DoL heals for is close to that of HC, with no cast time, and like you said you can run with it. It also can be used 4 times back to back with no cast time, making it a superior heal.

    What they need to do is adjust some higher end talents of the existing healing trees to give them competitive options.

    For example, change Healer's Haste to allow your multi-target heals to cost 75% less mana when it is active. This would give sentinels a reliable way of burning strong aoe heals like Divine Call and HC. Right now using HC back to back is a deathwish with how much of a mana drain it is.

    My whole arguement with this is:

    Say your a T3 healer in full Diona's Gear with over 1800 spellpower and no focus. How is it that you've completely dedicated yourself to healing but are now being told that you don't have a single aoe healing option. Tank healing is easy, and with overlapping DoL healers, sometimes you don't even need a strong tank healer. I mean hell, all the DoL healers have convenant and can just rotate it on the tank.

    Most of the serious healing in this game is AoE healing anyway. Its a bit crazy that actual dedicated healers are weak at it and the party relies on dps clerics, bards, and mages for just about all the group healing in rift.

    A fully geared healer almost has no place AoE healing without dps gear and running DoL. With AoE healing so important, and 3 different trees dedicated to healing, you would expect a healer to actually have some reliable group healing options.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Liang Nuren's Avatar
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    I'm not sure about how similar mass PVP and raid situations are, but I haven't found a DoL PVP build that even remotely competes with my Warden based build. Maybe there's a lot of overhealing... but there's a lot of actual healing too.

    -Liang

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