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Thread: SC Gears are now ruined.

  1. #46
    Champion j3w3l's Avatar
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    even with the change your usually still better off with the dps chain set as a healer since often offers 4:1 crit to sp difference which regardless of spec is nice, it just sucks that we wont benefit as much from it

    look at the raid chest (t3/r1) you lose nearly 5 sp to gain 23 sc,
    legs 5: 22
    feet 5: 21
    shoulders 5:23

    regardless of the change the dps mark gear is still mostly bis for healers which is stupid.
    the stat priorities on the mark gear are just weird, when just about everywhere else items show a 2:1 or 3:1 sc sp ratio.

    and yes my issue with this isnt really changing gears and essences, its being forced into heavy single soul builds, which dont scale as well in a raid environment, and that most specs are showing a sizeable nerf.
    Last edited by j3w3l; 09-10-2011 at 05:56 AM.
    So long rift, may your potential someday be realised

  2. #47
    Rift Disciple Fraeblood's Avatar
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    Yeah I use 3x3x sent ward in a lot of fights in T1 raids and even in HK. Long as the tank isn't getting WTFPWN I liked the ability to have decent AOE and hots along with strong single target heals in a lot of fights. Hope the change doesn't hurt this so much. If not kill it totally. I haven't tested it, but if not being 51 sent means my quicker heals are all but gone, then I will be a sad panda.
    NO, I'm a F**kn Squirrel!

  3. #48
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    My biggest issue is everyone seems to act as if we've had the "choose what you want and play" it attitude from the beginning, and we really haven't.

    34/32 puri/sent or 34/32 ward/sent (or any similar pt distribution) is and has been the main healing period. 51purifier for greenscale, but other than that it has been hybrids doing most of the healing. At the beginning a lot of people were upset that hybrids are outhealing pures, now they are changing it so pures should outheal most hybrids, and people are still upset.

    There will ALWAYS be a >this spec< over >that spec< mentality in MMOs. I've yet to see a successful MMO that uses talent (soul) trees NOT have this issue. EQ never had this issue because you played a CLASS, not a SOUL COMBINATION thereof.

  4. #49
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    This solution makes all healing builds less effective except DoL builds. It doesn't fix the fact that going 32 points+ in any of the trees is not attractive because all of the abilities above 32 points are god awful. Purifier may be the exception where the roots are decent on some fights but the talents necessary to get there are absolutely anemic and sacrifice all movement and aoe healing.

    It doesn't fix the fact that deep warden has no way to effectively get heals on a main tank when needed due to deluge CD, HoT AoE (and cataract) is pointless with DoL spam, and overflow is effectively now useless due to an icd on the proc.

    It doesn't fix the fact that the blessing system of purifier is clumsy and awful. Deep purifier can sit there and cast RF with one button for an entire fight and be exactly as effective as another person trying to juggle cooldowns optimally (not that there is any optimal way to do them aside from hit conflag if you like lasers).

    It doesn't fix the fact that deep sentinel is mostly wasted. As others have mentioned sentinel overheals more of its heals than what actually land due to other instants. This makes LI a non-factor in most case since its based off the amount healed. At least when you are pushing 60% overheal on purifier, you know that your shield is up absorbing damage. The 32+ talents in sentinel are absolutely abysmal. Marked by the light should be decent since its off the gcd, the problem being you have no control over when it hits. It heals based on other heals which means its either used up immediately by salvation/chloro/bard heals (nearly all overheal), or if you time it perfectly so it hits just as an AoE hits, it'll usually be overheal because it will be triggered off of someone's DoL spam. Vigilance is awful. It takes a GCD to cast, only lasts 10 seconds, doesn't stack with latent blaze, is worse than latent blaze, is affected by the latent blaze debuff, and is far less useful than just hitting instant crit or covenant in os! situations. Healing benediction is just a way to pad your overheal stats every 2 minutes. Cooldown is too long, channel makes it situational at best on most of the raid content, and its effectiveness depends on who it decides to heal.

    It doesn't fix the fact that serendipity is and always will be the best way to get heals on a target. We have no other talent that allows us to improve our throughput so well. Ward/Sent will still be better than pure sent for this because I'm casting nearly twice or 3 times as many heals in ward/sent than sent. When I need to get heals on someone, I can't wait 3 seconds, or stand in one spot for 3 seconds.

    The above is why nobody goes 51 point. Currently the best AoE healing specs are DoL based. Fix the 32pt+ talents, give each tree a deep root to fill a gap in its healing ability. Move the current 51 point roots lower or to the 31 point talent spot. Give warden a deep root that gives them a big heal option or spammable tank heal and rework cataract to make it competitive with communion or DoL. Give purifier a real AoE option, make conflag more central to the role, and rework the blessing system to either be more like vengeance's (always on, switchable off the gcd, but less powerful than their current incarnation). Round out sentinel with better versions of those 32+ talents, maybe based around more damage prevention or damage reflection, and a way to make overheal less of a waste with HI.

    Short of it is, make 51 points pecs competitive on all aspects of healing. We do no damage, have no utility, and will be forced into single spec healing roles (AoE, MT Shield, MT Heal). We already give up much when choosing to spec into any of those 3 roles and having to give up even more to be pigeonholed into one type of healing is ridiculous. I've tried to make 51 and 44/22 specs work, but the trees above 32 are just plain limp and boring and nothing in the ptr changes will change that, it just makes it more obvious how much we're giving up by going ward, sent, or purifier rather than leaving the MT/Raid healing to someone else and spamming DoL.

  5. #50
    Soulwalker
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    Personally, as someone who won't have to really re-gear at all and who usually uses 34/32 when possible for healing, the proc rate change of serendipity isn't my real issue -- its annoying, sure, but what really bothers me about the change is the loss of control over the proc (and, of course, the resulting loss of synergy within the build).

    I always found serendipity to be powerful more because I could actually influence its proc rate if necessary. Between things like Fiery Blessing and Flashover, you could time your massive bursts of ST healing for when you really needed it. With the change you no longer have any control over the proc, and thus are far more RNG bound than you were before, which is always a bad thing.

    So its really a double whammy; lower proc chance and the loss of influence over the proc rate.

  6. #51
    Telaran Yeolon's Avatar
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    IMO, Trion should leave the skills alone, and just change the gear but thats just me.

  7. #52
    Sword of Telara Calibrex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yeolon View Post
    IMO, Trion should leave the skills alone, and just change the gear but thats just me.
    Trees and skills have been modified constantly for balance. I love how far the bard has come since beta. Or how interesting the new 51 shaman build is.
    Where's the Auction House to buy more DPS for my cleric?

  8. #53
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    What would ideally be done:

    All T1 raid-quality cloth gear currently possessed by Clerics is transformed into chain gear of equivalent quality, such that raid rift cloth gear becomes raid rift chain gear, GSB/RoS dropped cloth gear becomes GSB/RoS dropped chain gear, and marks bought cloth gear are refunded for their weight in marks.

    What would practically be done:

    A full set of T1 raid-quality chain can be obtained from master level instances and obtained at approximately the same rate as T2.

    What would likely be done:

    The changes will go through, nothing will be refunded, *and* master level instances will be a PITA timesink that makes you want to quit the game after you threw hundreds of marks of ascension into cloth for BIS gear that is now useless.

  9. #54
    Telaran Yeolon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calibrex View Post
    Trees and skills have been modified constantly for balance. I love how far the bard has come since beta. Or how interesting the new 51 shaman build is.
    This isnt a blanace with these changes, its ruined hybrids for cleric.

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sokanon View Post
    -Didn't bother reading posts past the OP.

    In regards to the OP: Crit will STILL remain useful, though not quite as useful as it was. They're giving us inherent abilities that increase the chance based on points spent in the tree, which personally I think is more interesting on a class base, rather than a gear base.

    It nerfs the high-end geared people, while benefiting those who are lower on the gear scale. In essence the changes are "Bring the class, not the gear".

    Regearing is a MINOR PITA. I'd consider myself one of the top geared DPS clerics in current raiding content, and I'll be honest, aside from a few lessers I'll replace with SP over crit, there isn't much of a change. Stop overreacting and start thinking outside the box and do a little napkin math. You'll see the change isn't gamebreaking at all.

    Anyone who was wearing more cloth than chain gear was doing it wrong in the first place.
    Naturally, since HK prevents you from purchasing cloth in the first place, while in PvP there is no choice at all.

    But for those Clerics in T1 raiding guilds, which I surmise is the vast majority of Clerics who raid, Cloth gear was, in many cases, mathematically BIS. Thus, for people who were trying to min/max their characters prior to the changes on Test, and this is attested by the BIS guides on this very forum, Cloth was what they bought.

    No, they were not "doing it wrong." They were doing it "right" - with the assumption that Trion wouldn't knowingly screw over so many people after being silent on the Cloth issue for so long, including nerfing Wisdom several months ago, which drove Clerics into going Cloth in the first place.

    But, it seems, this is a gamble that they lost.

    On the bright side, though, Trion might have lost their accounts, too - just deserves for such incompetence.
    Last edited by Etadanik; 09-12-2011 at 02:29 PM.

  11. #56
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    Show me a full set of Cloth gear (or even 50% cloth gear) that is mathematically BiS over Chain gear of its equivalence. If you find it I'll eat my words, but from my experience, you won't find it.

  12. #57
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    Sure:

    http://forums.riftgame.com/rift-gene...is-harder.html

    This, along with Fluxion's original thread, was one of the longest running and most widely approved BIS gearing threads for the bulk of healing guilds used in the raiding game. Take a look at the HEP values of the gears listed in Worksheet 2 and you'll see that cloth gear > chain gear in almost every situation.
    Last edited by Etadanik; 09-12-2011 at 04:29 PM.

  13. #58
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    Many of them are out of order in relation to their HEP.

    I'll also mention to Ellipson that my eyes are bleeding after reading that sheet.

    Very few cloth pieces are BiS, (I think I counted 2) in a Raid 1 setting.

  14. #59
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    They aren't sorted according to HEP, unfortunately, but as it is I count three Raid 1 pieces: Cloth BP, Legs, and Gloves being BIS over Chain for that pier.
    Last edited by Etadanik; 09-12-2011 at 05:44 PM.

  15. #60
    Telaran
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    Threw this together quickly since I'm at work

    http://imgur.com/a/EfLjs

    I wrote a whole page of stuff, but you're not going to read it.

    You have to look both at these individual graphs on a PER ITEM basis and an OVERALL basis.

    What I do find is, that I can get away with a HIGHER ratio on my gear, due to the skewness of my Source Engine/Sigil.

    Keep in mind this is purely about itemisation and people over-commiting to Crit/Cloth gear and NOT to the changes to the SC talents.
    Last edited by Talnoth; 09-12-2011 at 06:39 PM.

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