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Thread: Warden and Crit

  1. #1
    Telaran Nahin's Avatar
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    Default Warden and Crit

    So, as a 51 point raid healing warden, how much crit am I aiming for? I help roll hots on the tank but I am there many for raids heals. I'm asking this so I can make the most use of overflow. I am just starting to raid so that gives you an idea of what my gear is like. Though I'm not sure if my gear is "raid" ready or not. What are the values to shoot for? I know what I need for tanking but can't find the healing values and I forget em

    Here is my build
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00dej.Vxk.EEdtqtRqz.h

    Thanks
    Nahin - Guild Officer
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    Plane Touched
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    for healing u should have at least 1k spellpower and around 500 crit (unbuffed). thats pretty much the lowest u should have. i started raiding at around 980 sp and 450 crit, but that was in the days noone really had had the content clear. and we were wipeing more than progressing :P


    if u join a good raid u dont really need any stats. our guild has done complete GS with only 19 players and i think there are many guilds wich are better geared than we are.

  3. #3
    Rift Master Rarz's Avatar
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    You should be concentrating on getting as much spellpower and wisdom as possible as a Warden. Crit is nice, but you shouldn't aim for it, as it is too unreliable.

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    Telaran Yunesca's Avatar
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    I could be wrong but I was under the impression that as warden spell power > healing effectiveness.

    Do you suffer from mana problems that much that you need AR? Blatent assumption is that you are either A) spamming AoE perhaps too much or B) you are spamming because you dont have any other AoE healers aka shamicar/inquisicar.

    I think there was a similar post a page or so back asking the same question as to whether crit on a warden was of any use due to Overflow.

  5. #5
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    IMHO crit on warden is pretty usefull. WAY more usefull than on a puri.

    2 reasons for crit stacking as warden:
    overflow! (Needs high wisdom to b effective though)
    hot ticks crit most times dont result in overhealing, like the big 3 sec cast heals from puri/sent

  6. #6
    Telaran
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    By going 12 inq for AR, you are putting yourself in a position that you require 220 focus. As a pure healer, you need 0 focus, and thus you can gain a lot more stats. I would suggest putting those 12 points in inq over in sentinel and purifier.

  7. #7
    Telaran Nahin's Avatar
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    This is the thread that lead me to the current spec I use, and yes I pretty much constantly keep Healing Flood active.
    Nahin - Guild Officer
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  8. #8
    Telaran Yunesca's Avatar
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    Ah that post. Well theres one undeniable fact that still keeps me away from crit as warden, is that overflow is mostly, emphasis on mostly, overheal. And less minor but still relevant is that if your tank happens to dodge/parry a couple of swings and you are spamming on the tank, you could potentially munch a couple of overflows, and hence waste the heal itself.

    But moreso to the point, I dont really see the benefit in stacking crit for a measly 450~ heal on the tank depending on my crit, when I could stack raw SP and get the same or more healing throughput via my HoTS.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nahin View Post
    So, as a 51 point raid healing warden, how much crit am I aiming for? I help roll hots on the tank but I am there many for raids heals. I'm asking this so I can make the most use of overflow. I am just starting to raid so that gives you an idea of what my gear is like. Though I'm not sure if my gear is "raid" ready or not. What are the values to shoot for? I know what I need for tanking but can't find the healing values and I forget em

    Here is my build
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00dej.Vxk.EEdtqtRqz.h

    Thanks
    The value of crit depends on your stats. Items with crit rating and SP will be of most benefit to you.

    Assuming you have 1k SP, 500 crit, 500 wisdom unbuffed and 50% Overflow effectiveness...
    I adjusted my W/S spreadsheet a little for your weird *** spec...

    https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...9DUmc&hl=en_US

    SP would be 2.04x more effective than crit, point for point, for increasing your HPS. This means that SP/Crit items are indeed the most effective for you (Damons/Shylas). If you want to let me know your current stats (assuming theyre not 1000/500), I can manipulate this for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yunesca
    Well theres one undeniable fact that still keeps me away from crit as warden, is that overflow is mostly, emphasis on mostly, overheal. And less minor but still relevant is that if your tank happens to dodge/parry a couple of swings and you are spamming on the tank, you could potentially munch a couple of overflows, and hence waste the heal itself.

    But moreso to the point, I dont really see the benefit in stacking crit for a measly 450~ heal on the tank depending on my crit, when I could stack raw SP and get the same or more healing throughput via my HoTS.
    Even without overflow, crit is valuable. And even despite Ocean's Blessing, HoT SP scaling is still mediocre. I've run the numbers extensively to prove this. You'd need assloads of SP, I mean assloads, even as warden to make your HoTs hit as hard as crits do...even without bonuses to crit damage/healing. That doesn't mean one should stack crit blindly, but maintaining a balance is the smartest and most effective approach.

    A lot of people don't realize how poorly HoTs scale with SP.

    Just as a brain exercise, lets say you're 51/10/5 (W/S/P) with wisdom in Puri. You have 1k SP and no bonuses to crit D/H%.

    Your healing spray will tick for approximately 220.
    Your healing spray will crit for approximately 330.

    In order to get your healing spray to tick for 330, you would need 950 more spellpower.

    With 4-stack SS, it's a little easier.

    Your SS will tick for approximately 738.
    Your SS will crit for approximately 1107.

    In order to get your SS to tick for 1107, you would need 710 more spellpower.

    This is completely ignoring Overflow, Tidal Resonance, and the ENORMOUS opportunity cost of stacking spellpower so exclusively.

    So clearly when you say you "could stack raw SP and get the same or more healing throughput via my HoTS," you're exaggerating terribly.


    ....As far as overflow effectiveness, it depends entirely on the fight, and crit is still powerful even without it. While only procced Overflows are recorded by parsers, on last week's Gaurath as W/S with OT/MT backup/raid assign I was at 75% effectiveness. Not bad for a 100% free heal.

    I'll argue that the difficult fights draw higher overflow eHPS, which is really what matters. And if you really care so much about overheal, don't forget that bigger (higher SP) HoT ticks result in higher overheal as well. It's sort of a moot point/self defeating argument to diss Overflow when overhealing is such a reality in rift.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluxions View Post
    Just as a brain exercise, lets say you're 51/10/5 (W/S/P) with wisdom in Puri. You have 1k SP and no bonuses to crit D/H%.

    Your healing spray will tick for approximately 220.
    Your healing spray will crit for approximately 330.

    In order to get your healing spray to tick for 330, you would need 950 more spellpower.
    Can't stop at that blanket statement. I dont know the number correlating to X crit = 1% crit

    But lets say you have 500 crit and crit 20% of the time

    20% of the time you gain 110 more healing, which means a net of 22 more health

    Lets say you drop half your crit and are wondering how much spell power you would need to make up for it.

    So now you have sacrificed half your crit, and 11 health per tick avg due to crits. How much spellpower does it take to add at LEAST 11 more health per tick?

    That is the important math I believe.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oral View Post
    Can't stop at that blanket statement. I dont know the number correlating to X crit = 1% crit

    But lets say you have 500 crit and crit 20% of the time

    20% of the time you gain 110 more healing, which means a net of 22 more health

    Lets say you drop half your crit and are wondering how much spell power you would need to make up for it.

    So now you have sacrificed half your crit, and 11 health per tick avg due to crits. How much spellpower does it take to add at LEAST 11 more health per tick?

    That is the important math I believe.
    Hmm, you may indeed have landed on the best way to measure the impact. You still run into some trouble with Overflow, but in the end, I think your primary decision making process should largely exclude the impact of Overflow and rather just consider it a bonus, until proven otherwise.

    I will do some testing with this, see what I come up with.

  12. #12
    Telaran Nahin's Avatar
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    915 spellpower, 505 crit, 385 wisdom.
    Nahin - Guild Officer
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  13. #13
    Rift Disciple
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    So, I did a considerable amount of testing on the dummy yesterday. I was doing three minutes at a time, saving the combat log to a new text file and uploading it into excel for analysis.

    After that testing, I landed on this decision.

    I now have two different 51 point warden specs.

    For primarily single target healing with use of AoE as needed, I run 51 Warden, 15 sentinel, 0 purifier.

    It used to be 51 Warden, 10 sentinel, 5 cabalist. However, with 15 Sentinel I could get the same spell power boost I was getting from cabalist, along with Benediction (which my test showed was more effective than 5% spellpower) and I could get the 20% heal boost from crits. Not to mention Touch the Light which I put on a mouseover macro with Orbs of the Tide, Orbs of the Stream and Healing Current (in case one of the first two is on cooldown).

    The idea being that I won't need this on the MT, this is something to use on someone else in the raid when Healing Breath is on CD or just isn't enough.

    For gear in this build, I go all SP and do not intentionally stack any crit. Single target on the dummy my 3 minutes were pulling 1325HPS (I manually calculated overflow at 75% effectiveness for non-crits and 60% effectiveness for crits, with the crit rate as measured in my test).

    For this test, I had 1253 SP and 454 spell crit, self-buffed (or in this case, no buffs).

    For primarily AoE healing with some single target spot healing, I now run 51 Warden, 6 inquisitor (for the armor) and 9 sentinel (5 benediction, 4 points in the boost to crit healing).

    I know what you're thinking. Why put 6 points into Inquisitor for the armor, when you get more crit from 5 points in Purifier.

    Truth is, I can't tell you why, other than the testing showed I could more reliably get Overflow to proc with the armor from Inq than I could with the 5% crit chance for heals from Purifier. Through multiple tests of a 3 minute full healing rotation, I was 7.6% more likely to proc overflow with the 6 Inq, than with the 5 points in Puri.

    Is it possible the 5% healing crit chance from Puri is broken? Or not calculating correctly?

    At any rate, the object with this spec is to spam the crap out of healing flood (and showers when off CD) for most AoE damage. Then, when it gets really bad, Tidal Surge + Downpour.

    On the dummy, just single target, I actually pulled more HPS than with the build above, but at the expense of some utility and with a larger reliance on crits, which is why I'm not just using this build for everything. But the total over 3 minutes was 1335 HPS.

    In this spec, I gear for spell crit (and my spell crit gear isn't as good as my spell power gear), but I top out at 1069 spell power and 776 spell crit (self-buffed).

    I used this build to heal Warmaster last night and sustained 2k HPS, and I wasn't the only healer (and no, I didn't heal Warmaster, heh).

    TL;DR - For single target and limited AoE, Spell Power still seems to be supreme. For heavy AoE with a larger reliance on Overflow, crit is best, spam heals, use cascade when able and pot early and often.
    Last edited by Craenor; 07-01-2011 at 08:14 AM.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Craenor View Post
    For this test, I had 1253 SP and 454 spell crit, self-buffed (or in this case, no buffs).

    For primarily AoE healing with some single target spot healing, I now run 51 Warden, 6 inquisitor (for the armor) and 9 sentinel (5 benediction, 4 points in the boost to crit healing).

    I know what you're thinking. Why put 6 points into Inquisitor for the armor, when you get more crit from 5 points in Purifier.

    Truth is, I can't tell you why, other than the testing showed I could more reliably get Overflow to proc with the armor from Inq than I could with the 5% crit chance for heals from Purifier. Through multiple tests of a 3 minute full healing rotation, I was 7.6% more likely to proc overflow with the 6 Inq, than with the 5 points in Puri.

    Is it possible the 5% healing crit chance from Puri is broken? Or not calculating correctly?
    [/B]
    Completely dumb thought, I don't really do the whole theory-crafting and testing and such. So a thought that just popped into my head while reading this. Is it maybe that the 5% is multiplied not added? So if you have 454 crit which is how much %? For the sake of math say it's 20%, so take 20% x 5% instead of 20% + 5%? I really don't know, just a thought and as I said, may be an entirely stupid one

  15. #15
    Plane Touched
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    It's silly to ignore Overflow because, whether you can handle crit being a good stat for you or not, Overflow is still a major contributor to your healing and is still ONLY effective with crit. I'm not just going to arbitrarily ignore the benefit of Ancestral Flame because it's only consumed sometimes; similarly you can't reasonably ignore the benefit of Overflow because it is indeed consumed sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nahin View Post
    915 spellpower, 505 crit, 385 wisdom.
    Your spellpower ratio assuming 0% Overflow effectiveness is then 2.65 SP: 1 CR.
    With 100% Overflow effectiveness, 1.94 SP: 1 CR
    At 50% (a reasonable estimate), 2.23 SP: 1 CR

    Using 2.23SP: 1 CR, refer to the following sheet (see ORANGE column for your "BIS"): https://spreadsheets.google.com/spre...VMdXc&hl=en_US

    Which indicates CHAIN SP/Crit gear to be ideal for you, with a few exceptions. This is in contrast to P/S and W/S, who typically benefit more from CLOTH SP/Crit gear.

    Even if you COMPLETELY ignore Overflow (treating it as if you didn't even have the talent), chain SP/Crit gear (Damon's/Shyla's) is still superior to pure SP gear 99% of the time AND the mage pants are still your best-in-slot (see YELLOW column in above spreadsheet).

    The fact is you have to sacrifice SO much crit to increase your SP. The exchange (for most RoS/GS gear) is usually a gain of 5 SP at the expense of some 20 crit...outside of Cab/Puri, never worthwhile.


    Quote Originally Posted by Craenor
    Is it possible the 5% healing crit chance from Puri is broken? Or not calculating correctly?
    Much more likely that RNG was not in your favor. In my experience parsing, observed crit rate rarely reflects actual crit rate. I've tested pure SP builds for 7 minutes and seen 30% chance to crit on RF as P/S, with only some 350 CR. Similarly, I've tested high-crit builds and observed 20% chance.

    This is why theorycraft > parsing. Although I will say, that over the course of an entire raid night, my log's final averaged crit % always mirrors my actual crit %.

    So...has nothing to do with Disciple of Flame being broken, just have to increase your sample size (a sh!tload) for accuracy.

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