Justicar Tank Threat Values

[Knobby]

Now that I have proof that all healing abilities are effected by MoL - ie x4 threat modifier here are the values for my unbuffed state with 555 Spell Power and 623 Attack Power. Crits have not been taken into account, these are for average normal hits. Vengeance of the Winter Storm is also included.

No Heal
Sov 1,128
BoR 1,100
PoR 880
DoA 784
SoJ 736
Life's Vengeance 656
Healing Breath 0
DoBliss 0
DoL 0

Self Heal
DoA 3,128
Healing Breath 2,076
DoBliss 1,852
DoL 1,620
Sov 1,414
BoR 1,379
PoR 1,088
SoJ 908
Life's Vengeance 726


Self +1 Heal
DoA 5,472
Healing Breath 4,152
DoBliss 3,704
DoL 3,240
Sov 1,700
BoR 1,658
PoR 1,296
SoJ 1,080
Life's Vengeance 795


The order remains the same for more heal targets and the lead for healing becomes larger.

Healing is easily our largest threat generating action providing there is no overhealing.

[Radak]

The order remains the same for more heal targets and the lead for healing becomes larger.

Healing is easily our largest threat generating action providing there is no overhealing.

First nice work on your list.

However I have a question for you and 1 correction.
First the question. Did you test if 1 damage and 1 healing generates the same amount of threat.
For example if 1 damage = 1 threat and 1 healing = 0.5 threat that will make a lot of difference for your priority.
I myself haven't tested it but some say they generate different amounts of threat and others say they generate the same amount of threat.

And then for the correction. You say that the order won't change if more healing targets are added. However this might not be true for a raid environment. The reason is that DoA only heals up to 5 targets (yourself + 4 others) while DoL can heal up to 10 targets (yourself +9 others). So if there is a lot of raid damage DoL will probably pull ahead in threat.

[marodeur]

What is a DoB + 1 heal or a Breath + 1 heal? What you meant with that? You just doubled the value there.

Some days ago i postet the same, that healing is better for threat in the PTS forum the reaction was ->

This is so painfully wrong. I feel bad for people you tank for.

[shroudb]

And then for the correction. You say that the order won't change if more healing targets are added. However this might not be true for a raid environment. The reason is that DoA only heals up to 5 targets (yourself + 4 others) while DoL can heal up to 10 targets (yourself +9 others). So if there is a lot of raid damage DoL will probably pull ahead in threat.

that is not quite certain imo. i haven't tested DoA in end game raiding (i use 44just there) and so i can't tell how well or bad it scales.

but in an instance, DoA is healing ~730for me and DoL is healing 440.

if you add that DoA also deals good damage and through reperation it translates that to healing too, i would say that DoA heals 5 people for about 800 and deals close to 270damage and DoL heals 10 people 440.

so healing wise DoL heals for 4400 and DoA for 4000 and DoA also deals some damage.

Those figures are so close that scaling does matter a lot. and effectively, the one that scales even a tiny better will be the winner.

[Radak]

that is not quite certain imo. i haven't tested DoA in end game raiding (i use 44just there) and so i can't tell how well or bad it scales.

but in an instance, DoA is healing ~730for me and DoL is healing 440.

if you add that DoA also deals good damage and through reperation it translates that to healing too, i would say that DoA heals 5 people for about 800 and deals close to 270damage and DoL heals 10 people 440.

so healing wise DoL heals for 4400 and DoA for 4000 and DoA also deals some damage.

Those figures are so close that scaling does matter a lot. and effectively, the one that scales even a tiny better will be the winner.

You are correct that it depends on scaling however in that case his statements that the order won't change still isn't true as currently in his list DoL is below Healing breath and DoB which obviously won't be true for more then 1 target (in his list he actually doubled the Healing breath and DoB value for the healing+1 target which obviously isn't true).

[Knobby]

Problem is that I took the answers in the other thread as gospel, which created the question of MoL affecting healing. Two replies said that testing had confirmed that one damage = one healing without MoL. I now have reason to suspect this not to be true. I hit a mob for 164 with Life's Vengeance with MoL up and then took a heal for 2397 without losing aggro. The following heal of 1236 did take aggro.

164 x 4 = 656

Need to do more testing

[Knobby]

Looks like 50% allowing for a 130% aggro transfer for ranged healer.

Will redo numbers.

My lesson learned is always do your own testing.

[Stay]

How could it be 50% if your own test just showed it must be under ~36%?

130% of your 656 threat = ~853 threat to pull from range
2397 did not pull so 2397 healing < 853 threat
853/2397 = ~35.5%
So healing must do less than 35.5% threat compared to damage
Unless there is some other variable involved.

I would still guess that healing does 25% threat, based on posts in the other thread.

[Knobby]

New numbers based on 50% threat. Not so clearcut.

No Heal
Sov 1,128
BoR 1,100
PoR 880
DoA 784
SoJ 736
Life's Vengeance 656
Healing Breath 0
DoBliss 0
DoL 0

Self Heal
DoA 1,956
Sov 1,271
BoR 1,240
Healing Breath 1,038
PoR 984
DoBliss 926
SoJ 822
DoL 810
Life's Vengeance 691

Self +1 Heal
DoA 3,128
DoL 1,620
Sov 1,414
BoR 1,379
PoR 1,088
Healing Breath 1,038
DoBliss 926
SoJ 908
Life's Vengeance 726

[Knobby]

How could it be 50% if your own test just showed it must be under ~36%?

130% of your 656 threat = ~853 threat to pull from range
2397 did not pull so 2397 healing < 853 threat
853/2397 = ~35.5%
So healing must do less than 35.5% threat compared to damage
Unless there is some other variable involved.

I would still guess that healing does 25% threat, based on posts in the other thread.

Not sure about that result...the second heal was instant and may have been a bit of latency.
There is a 130% threshold to pull threat from ranged. Did some more (inconclusive) testing which makes it look like 50%. It can't be 25% from my testing even if the 130% is wrong. Not being able to filter out mob damage makes this whole testing process very awkward, and healers get bored quickly. I'm not certain, but 50% looks about right. Anyone can test it. Have a go.

[Ethanol]

that is not quite certain imo. i haven't tested DoA in end game raiding (i use 44just there) and so i can't tell how well or bad it scales.

but in an instance, DoA is healing ~730for me and DoL is healing 440.

Don't have any calcs done (or even accurate SP/heal value numbers), but I remember seeing 1500-1800 DoA crits on Thalguur (3rd GP boss where you get extra AP/SP in each phase) while DoL crits were still under 1k. So I'm guessing DoA is one of our spells that scales nicely (which would be expected with a 300% healing conversion)

And if you do the calcs with 25-35% threat for healing, the numbers make sense:
- Hard hitting abilities win when full HP
- DoA threat skyrockets as long as you're not full HP
- When your raid takes damage, you're better of helping the healers than spamming your DPS macro

Not sure how EJ spam ranks on multi-target (with raid needing heals) compared to DoL but I'm guessing it's higher, at least if you consider the extra SHoE procs (and is certainly more efficient mana/conviction wise)

Also there is no doubt that heal aggro is really powerful, on some bosses like Anrak or Duke, I sometimes have to turn off reparation for a few seconds (and not use DoA/DoL) or the dps won't be able to pick up adds they need to. And on a boss like Thalguur, it's enough to keep the ghosts on me until the gravedigger gets them all away.

[Ethanol]

Was going to test some DoA hit/heal values on dummies and after a few I noticed something (rest of numbers I had collected aren't accurate since I did testing with a 2H weap for high SP before remembering weapon damage was included, so scaling calcs will wait)

596 SP - 618 AP
Min hit: 177 damage & 584 healing
Max hit: 196 damage & 646 healing
Crit hit: 309 damage & 1019 healing

The healing value is always 3.296-3.298 times (guessing it's 3.3 rounded down) the damage which is 10% more than what the tooltip states. So is DoA healing a bit more than intended or am I missing something?

[marodeur]

Because of shamans 'Favored of the Valnir'.

[Knobby]

Did another 20 mins testing. More and more confident that Healing is at a 50% threat value with 130% range aggro pull load and 120% or more in melee.

Bored all available healers now so someone else will have to take up the baton if they want to prove me wrong.