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Thread: Warden HoTs: SP/Crit scaling spreadsheet (or: SP isnt as good as you thought for 51W)

  1. #1
    Plane Touched
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    Default Warden HoTs: SP/Crit scaling spreadsheet (or: SP isnt as good as you thought for 51W)

    SPREADSHEET
    (link to guild site above, which will take you to the google docs spreadsheet. I this over a direct link in case I want to add notes...since you can't edit posts on the rift forums :/)

    Sheet 1: Calcs. The usual...download and fool around with it. Enter your (UNTALENTED) stats in the blue boxes.
    Sheet 2: Raiding gearset comparisons.

    Notes:
    • Serendipity is not included in these calculations. Only HoT values.
    • Assumes 6% average effect of Ebb and Flow (#s place it at ~6.5 when constantly casting..6% is being generous but w/e)
    • Overflow effectiveness toggle you can mess with
    • Sim options available for the following specs:
      >51 Ward/10 Sent/5 Cab
      >33 Ward/28 Sent/5 Puri
      >34 Ward/32 Sent/0 Puri
    • Because stat values can't be calculated at face value, baseline gear (belt, mh, source engine, etc) was used when running comparisons between gear sets. PTR BIS from R2 were used when comparing R2 sets, PTR BIS from R1 were used when comparing R1 sets, with the exception of source engines (R2 quality were used in both)
    • Gear was enchanted. (Mostly) chain with wis, cloth with int, flux BiS with int, weapons with SP for lack of crit runes.
    • I think I might have used the Asphodel's Hardened gloves when analyzing the Empowered set. Woops.

    Observations:
    • Spellpower is good for 51 Warden, but not as good as everyone blabbers about. Crit is still great, even despite what you get from Ocean's Blessing. As 51 Warden with Raid 1 gear, SP is only ~1.75-2.25x as good as crit. The more crit you have, the more important SP is. The more SP you have, the more important crit is.
    • As everyone suspected, it's more effective to stack spellpower as a fresh 50, then crit later on. The exact turnaround point is kinda TBD...but as an example:
      >At 650 SP, 300 crit, and 350 wisdom, with 90% Overflow effectiveness, the stat ratio for 51 Warden is 2.75 SP: 1 Crit
      >At 900 SP, 350 crit, and 450 wisdom, with 90% Overflow effectiveness, the stat ratio for 51 Warden is 2.25 SP: 1 Crit
      So here, in the process of stacking SP, you can see crit has gained more importance relative to SP.
    • When comparing 51 Ward vs Ward/Sent, 51 Ward offers ~20-30% increase in HoT effectiveness. The relative benefit of Ocean's Blessing actually reduces as gear quality increases.
    • 34/32 W/S sucks
    • Although my fluxy BiS is not listed as BiS on the gearset comparison page, it's still BiS when adjusted for serendipity and when regen is taken into consideration. ^_^

    To do:
    • More spec options
    • Add additional sheets for BiS lists that rearrange automatically as stats are entered & HEP adjusts accordingly :O
    • Continue to spread the good word of crit to all the nubs
    • Add PvP gear

  2. #2
    Rift Chaser
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    Can you post exactly what your proposed BiS set is? As in, the names of the items?

    All I can find is
    Helm- cloth
    Shoulders- chain DPS
    Chest- cloth
    Gloves- chain healing
    Legs- cloth
    Feet- chain DPS

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    Rift Chaser beawr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluxions View Post
    Another fun Fluxions post. ]
    Good stuff! Look forward to playing with this later. I'll have some prettier maths to back me up in the arguments I keep having with people.
    Cleric Tank -Guardian- Sunrest
    <Esti Efiu>

  4. #4
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    Default Fluxions...

    Would you mind explaining this for the simple-minded players who don't understand all of the in-depth mechanics?

    As in, if you would be so kind, would you start at ground zero (as in, what is mp10) and work your way up?

    I understand your math, but have no idea where you come up with these numbers and therefore not sure what they mean when I get a result.

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    Rift Disciple
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    Post the equation you're using to model healing done please.

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    Rift Chaser beawr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponytoucher View Post
    Post the equation you're using to model healing done please.
    Nice name
    Cleric Tank -Guardian- Sunrest
    <Esti Efiu>

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ponytoucher View Post
    Post the equation you're using to model healing done please.
    The equations are all within the spreadsheet, I don't need to write them out individually.

    I used my own spell coefficients for base values (last tested about a week ago/link in sig), and applied what I know about talent interaction (and have tested extensively) to determine final heal values. Please note that crit estimates include overflow.

    I tested non-crit HoT tick values at several different spellpower intervals to make sure this spreadsheet is accurate. Try it yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato
    Would you mind explaining this for the simple-minded players who don't understand all of the in-depth mechanics?

    As in, if you would be so kind, would you start at ground zero (as in, what is mp10) and work your way up?

    I understand your math, but have no idea where you come up with these numbers and therefore not sure what they mean when I get a result.
    Well, i'll give it my best shot without taking up too much of your time!

    Some definitions:
    Mp10 is mana restored passively per 10 seconds (while casting/in combat). This comes from Wisdom.
    eMp10 is similar to Mp10, in that it describes mana restored per 10 seconds, but has 3 components:
    1) Mana restored from Wisdom (as described above)
    2) Mana that comes from your starting mana-pool at the beginning of the battle (the full blue bar), this = (mana bar/fight duration in seconds)*10 (for a per-10 seconds value)
    3) Mana that comes from active or passive talents/abilities (such as Cascade)
    Spellpower (SP) increases your average heal value and is obtained from 3 sources:
    1) Pure spellpower ("+10 Spellpower")
    2) Intelligence (25% of Int = SP)
    3) Wisdom (75% of Wis = SP)
    Spell Critical Hit (CR) increases your chance to crit, which for Wardens, procs Overflow, and is obtained from 2 sources:
    1) Pure crit ("+10 Spell Critical Hit")
    2) Intelligence (1 Int = 1 Crit)
    SP:CR Ratio is a number that helps describe how valuable spellpower is relative to critical strike. If your SP:CR Ratio is 2.0, that means Spellpower is, point for point, 2x as effective as crit for increasing your overall healing.
    Healing Equivalence Points (HEP) uses the SP:CR Ratio to assign value (rank) gear quality/determine how much benefit that item will be to you. This is calculated by multiplying your SP:CR Ratio by total SP on the item, then adding total CR on the item = that item's HEP (given your current SP:CR Ratio).
    Overflow effectiveness is a value you enter into the spreadsheet and is something you need to guess. If you're thinking about a fight where the boss doesn't hit very hard, or very often, and it's unlikely that Overflow will actually be used, you'll want to lower this percentage.

    As you said, you understand the math, but you don't really know what to do with the number you get. Well, lets say you input:
    1000 SP
    500 CR
    400 Wis
    75% Overflow effectiveness
    SW Spec

    You'll be given a SP:CR Ratio number: in this case, that number is 1.7.

    This tells you that for your spec and stats, spellpower is 1.7x more effective than crit for increasing your healing. This has no bearing on your mana regeneration, only on making your green numbers bigger.

    (for patch 1.3 mana regeneration #s, see my signature)

    So what do you do with 1.7?

    You can apply it to every piece of gear you consider upgrading with, to determine 1) whether it's an upgrade and 2) how big of an upgrade it is. This can help steer you toward ideal itemization- customized exclusively for you, at precisely this point in time.

    So maybe you're using the T1 token chestpiece and Chestpiece of the Ancients drops off of Plutonus in DSMx. And you're wondering, is this an upgrade? The best way to answer this question is by using that 1.7 number:

    Exponent's Hauberk: 24 Wis/15 Int/12 CR/9 SP
    Total SP= (24 wis*.75) + (15 int*.25) + 9 sp = 30.75 SP
    Total CR= 15 int + 9 cr = 24 CR
    HEP value of the item given 1.7 SP:CR Ratio: (30.75 sp*1.7) + 24 cr = 76.275 HEP

    versus:

    Chestpiece of the Ancients: 29 Wis/18 Int/ 14 SP
    Total SP= (29 wis*.75) + (18 int*.25) + 14 sp = 40.25 SP
    Total CR= 18 int = 18 CR
    HEP value of the item given 1.7 SP:CR Ratio: (40.25 sp*1.7) + 18 cr = 86.425 HEP

    Answer: yes, at this time, Chestpiece of the Ancients is an upgrade! 86.425 is larger than 76.275.
    And as soon as you equip Chestpiece of the Ancients and remove Exponent's Hauberk, you have gained 9.5 SP and lost 6 crit, which has just adjusted your SP:CR ratio ever so slightly, to 1.69. Which, incidentally, makes sense: the more crit you get, the more valuable SP is. The more SP you get (in this case), the more valuable crit is.

    If you're familiar with excel, you can use your SP:CR ratio to mass-compare gear using existing spreadsheets, which makes it even easier. Just update your calculations whenever your SP:CR ratio changes (which it will as YOUR gear changes!)

    Hope that helps.


    Can you post exactly what your proposed BiS set is? As in, the names of the items?
    Sure, it's in my sig, a direct link to the spreadsheet is here: https://spreadsheets2.google.com/spr...hl=en_US#gid=1

    The blue-highlighted gear on sheet #2 is BiS (for Raid 2) assuming all other gear is Raid 2 quality.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    So the only question i have is what is the ideal SP:CR? should i be aiming for 1?

    thanks for all the leg work

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    Soulwalker
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    After reading this post about the spreadsheet and inputting and playing with some numbers. I am actually going to change my spec from Sent/Warden to 51 point warden and give it a run through.

    Your spreadsheet labels the spec as 51/10/5. I would assume 5 into purifier and 10 into sent? I am just a bit confused to where the 10 points would go. My logical guess would be sent but I just want to make sure

  10. #10
    Rift Master Tristam_Izumi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mzelis View Post
    So the only question i have is what is the ideal SP:CR? should i be aiming for 1?

    thanks for all the leg work
    You shouldn't be aiming for any specific SP:CR ratio. What it is is what it is. It's just an indicator that helps value what pieces of gear will be an upgrade, nothing more.


    Quote Originally Posted by Travic View Post
    After reading this post about the spreadsheet and inputting and playing with some numbers. I am actually going to change my spec from Sent/Warden to 51 point warden and give it a run through.

    Your spreadsheet labels the spec as 51/10/5. I would assume 5 into purifier and 10 into sent? I am just a bit confused to where the 10 points would go. My logical guess would be sent but I just want to make sure
    Partially correct. The 10 is indeed Sentinel; 5/5 Benediction, 5/5 Watchful Gaze. The 5 is actually Cabalist for 5/5 Stroke of Genius. At least according to Flux's "Full scaling" spreadsheet that links to builds on Zam.

    Edit: Forgot to mention, beautiful work on all the contributions you've done for healing clerics, Flux. I hope someone else steps up and does the same for dps clerics (or if someone has and I've missed it, a link to his/her work).
    Last edited by Tristam_Izumi; 07-16-2011 at 01:46 PM.
    "By the data to date, there is only one animal in the Galaxy dangerous to man man himself. So he must supply his own indispensable competition. He has no enemy to help him." - Lazarus Long

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tristam_Izumi View Post
    You shouldn't be aiming for any specific SP:CR ratio. What it is is what it is. It's just an indicator that helps value what pieces of gear will be an upgrade, nothing more.



    Partially correct. The 10 is indeed Sentinel; 5/5 Benediction, 5/5 Watchful Gaze. The 5 is actually Cabalist for 5/5 Stroke of Genius. At least according to Flux's "Full scaling" spreadsheet that links to builds on Zam.
    I have to disagree with Cabalist spec. 3 into Cabalist is fine, If you are doing 51 Warden and spec 10 into Sentinel, it would be a very unwise choice to not go ahead and spec 2 into anything and get Healing Communion.
    Candy

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple FaunaShaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KetFoH View Post
    I have to disagree with Cabalist spec. 3 into Cabalist is fine, If you are doing 51 Warden and spec 10 into Sentinel, it would be a very unwise choice to not go ahead and spec 2 into anything and get Healing Communion.
    Yea im kind of on the same boat. I find the healing communion pretty useful, but if i am going to put 12 points into sentinel, i minus well put 2 or even 3 more into it just for the touch of light as an emergency instant 10 raid heal.

    As a raid healer, with 15 in sentinel, for the last 5, does anyone find it better putting this into light efficiency instead of walk in the light. Walk in the light seems nice, but you'd have to crit and assume that crit isn't an over heal. If you do crit, there's going to be an over flow anyways. Seems like 5% more on raid heals is better, but i haven't tested all the scenarios.

    I do see how the cab bonus of another 5% can be big. If we go basic math and say SP is 1000, thats 50 extra SP and on the warden hots, thats (50 *1.6) 80 more SP, which with this math is still a 5%~ increase. That would be the same as the area heals getting 5% except you gain a instant 10 man raid heal and depending on spec 3, could be a templar for break free or a shield from purifer.

    The other option is to take light concentration for 10% savings in mana which is also very useful. I've been stacking SC lately, so my mana is at a good spot, and raid buffs only make that a lot more.


    Lastly, has anyone found a good number to shoot for with SP and SC?

    I got to 1200~ SP and now im just working on getting SC built up.

    Im aiming for unbuffed SP 1250-1300 / SC 870 (33%)


    Would like to hear other peoples thoughts!

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