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Thread: Single target threat

  1. #1
    Shadowlander
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    Default Single target threat

    Hello --

    I'm pretty new to justicar tanking and have just recently, within the last few days, started tanking t2s. I run the 44 justicar / 12 shamana / 10 inquisitor build. I've noticed that the vast majority of the time I can hold aggro just fine; however, of late I've been having a bit of trouble as I've run into more geared group members. I usually start off spamming my one button macro:

    #show Censure
    cast Glory of the Chosen
    cast Fated blow
    cast Precept of Refuge
    cast Sanction Heretic
    cast Censure
    cast Sovereignty
    cast Strike of Judgment
    cast Vex

    and heal to gain some additional threat through DoB. Is there anything else I could be doing or anything I should add to this macro? I've debated putting in the lightning hammer from shaman, but I don't know if that'd be a good fit. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara
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    remove censure, or at the very least use it manually instead of in a macro (it is a dps loss if you have it a macro= TPS loss).

    use DoL instead of DoB (you shouldn't have mana problems even with 1 mana regen and your build has 2)

  3. #3
    Shadowlander
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    This spec is similar to the 44 / 12 / 10 spec, but goes deeper into Shaman for Jolt. Jolt is an off-GCD substantial single target threat boost. It's reduced by Mein of Leadership, but a 60% Jolt is still more than no Jolt. Your macro will look something more like

    #show Sanction Heretic
    cast Jolt
    cast Glory of the Chosen
    cast Fated blow
    cast Precept of Refuge
    cast Sanction Heretic
    cast Sovereignty
    cast Strike of Judgment
    cast Vex


    Try it out. If you're still struggling for single-target threat, this is an even heavier Shaman spec that sacrifices Purge (make it the DPSs responsibility, their job is easier anyway) to get Stormborn boosting your Jolt's damage substantially. In this spec, Lightning Hammer is also a threat boost (the Stormborn cancelling out Mein of Leadership's non-Justi debuff) and so your macro would look like

    #show Sanction Heretic
    cast Jolt
    cast Glory of the Chosen
    cast Fated blow
    cast Precept of Refuge
    cast Sanction Heretic
    cast Lightning Hammer
    cast Sovereignty
    cast Strike of Judgment
    cast Vex


    I agree with shroudb on the Censure matter - it's less threat than Strike of Judgment so it shouldn't be in your macro. Censure is used only to provide the 15 second magic damage boost - so I wouldn't use it at all in the first 20 or so seconds of a pull (less threat plus all magic DPS are going to do more damage and produce more threat - a double whammy!) and then I would use it once you've got a solid threat lead on the DPS, and only when the debuff is about to run out.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    I took censure out of all macros and off all hotbars a while ago and don't miss it.

    Threat loss as people have said, plus it overwrites the 7% soul drain debuff with a crappy 3% one. In any situation where those few percent matter, you want the soul drain one.

    I currently use 44 justicar / 22 shaman and have lightning hammer in the macro, so far I haven't lost single target threat to anyone unless they're using threat abilities. AoE threat is a different matter.

  5. #5
    Telaran Asmiroth's Avatar
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    The most basic way to find best threat as a Justicar since all abilities generate the same amount of threat - ignoring the extra healing threat from Doctrine of Authority. An ability that does more damage also heals for more damage through Salvation/Reparation.

    Step 1 - Install a DPS meter
    Step 2 - Find a target dummy
    Step 3 - Turn on Mien of Leadership
    Step 4 - Use each ability at least 50 times
    Step 5 - Open DPS tool to find average damage per attack
    Step 6 - Order list from highest to lowest damage
    Step 7 - Use as an attack priority list

    Bolt of Radiance should only be used when you know for certain there won't be any more adds, otherwise use at your leisure. DoT attacks (Sanction Heretic/Vex/Lightning Hammer) deal threat over time.

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple
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    I cannot copy/paste on my phone, but all you guys should REALLY move glory of the chosen and fated blow underneath strike of judgement in your macros. Those fire off the gcd, and you can move them below so they don't fire when one of your others would. Hit the button between gcds and they'll still go off just fine.

  7. #7
    Telaran
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    As the posters above have pointed out Jolt is your way to more single target threat.
    I am currently running raids with
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00...c0oo.Ved0tMsok

    This sacrifices virtually all "oh-****" spells for threat.

    a slightly more conservative version of the same spec
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00...f0oo.Vgd0tMs0z
    is what id recommend for the day to day T2

    the 1.3 version of that spec would put the 2 points from Commitment into Thorvin's Law

    if you wish to get rebuke in 1.3 then something along the lines of
    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00...Veeooo.Vgd0t0o
    would do the trick.


    keep in mind that jolt without stormborn is only half as useful.
    Celestrya - Officer of <Precision> - Whitefall/EU

    I would change the world, but god doesn't give me the sourcecode...

  8. #8
    Rift Disciple Knobby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmiroth View Post
    The most basic way to find best threat as a Justicar since all abilities generate the same amount of threat - ignoring the extra healing threat from Doctrine of Authority. An ability that does more damage also heals for more damage through Salvation/Reparation.

    Step 1 - Install a DPS meter
    Step 2 - Find a target dummy
    Step 3 - Turn on Mien of Leadership
    Step 4 - Use each ability at least 50 times
    Step 5 - Open DPS tool to find average damage per attack
    Step 6 - Order list from highest to lowest damage
    Step 7 - Use as an attack priority list

    Bolt of Radiance should only be used when you know for certain there won't be any more adds, otherwise use at your leisure. DoT attacks (Sanction Heretic/Vex/Lightning Hammer) deal threat over time.
    I'm assuming that one point of damage = 1 point of healing from a threat perspective. If this is the case, our healing abilities have a much higher value than our damage, providing of course it is not overheal. The 25% healing from Justicar abilities should be taken into account in the case of Lightning Hammer which gets only 10% healing from Salvation and 11% from Reparation.
    Honestly, asking your healer to leave a little gap in your healthbar is worth a ton of threat. Warden healers are not great for us Justi tanks. RF cancel casting purifiers are ideal. Faesource greater essence is good for threat, as is SHoE trinket of course. Anything that heals you passively is a double win as it is good for both defense and threat.

    DoA is a threat monster if the party has taken damage. If it all lands, you get the single target damage (say 250 - I really can't remember) plus 5 x 750 = 3750 for 4000 base threat x4 for MoL = 12,000 total threat. Furthermore, you get salvation and reparation from the damage proportion at 250 x 25% = 62.5healing x 5 = 312.5 x 400% = 1250. So, in total that would be 13,250 threat in one GCD. Of this, only 750 threat is generated from damage.

    This compares to the threat from SoJ for example. Lets say it does 200 damage and Salvation/Reparation lands on all in the party. (200+(5x50))x4 = 1800 total threat.

    Further comparing DoL. I think it does about 375 healing for me, but again I can't remember. If it lands on just me = 375 x4 = 1500 threat. If it lands on me +1 = 3000 etc, so DoL is a substantially better threat tool if there are two party bars that will take the healing. With 5 you get 7500 threat.

    I hope that this helps you make the right choice of threat generating tools. As a Justi tank we need to be looking at the health bars, not because we can really save anyone with our healing, but because landing our heals are massive threat generators.

    One other thing, Trion have confirmed that there is a threat threshold for a target to switch aggro. They have announced that they have raised that threshold for melee range in 1.3. This will help of course, but it also shows the value of keeping the tanked mobs away from the ranged dps and healers, as we can assume that those at range take aggro from you at a higher threshold than at melee range. I suspect that melee is currently set at something like 110% and being changed to 115% and range is at 130% or so, but I'm just guessing.

    I hope that I have at least one inaccuracy in the above so that I can peak the interest of sensei Radak for clarification
    Last edited by Knobby; 06-20-2011 at 07:06 AM.

  9. #9
    Telaran Asmiroth's Avatar
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    Look at all those ifs and then re-read my post about being a basic threat measure.

    If the heals from DoL are what keep threat on you, then you have greater issues that can be resolved in this thread.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexicacon View Post
    I cannot copy/paste on my phone, but all you guys should REALLY move glory of the chosen and fated blow underneath strike of judgement in your macros. Those fire off the gcd, and you can move them below so they don't fire when one of your others would. Hit the button between gcds and they'll still go off just fine.
    This is strong advise.

    Try 16 Sham (For jolt), 44 Just, 6 Cab for T2 tanking, works a treat for me.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple Knobby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmiroth View Post
    Look at all those ifs and then re-read my post about being a basic threat measure.

    If the heals from DoL are what keep threat on you, then you have greater issues that can be resolved in this thread.
    I don't know what you think my greater issues might be. I don't have threat issues. The OP was talking about single target threat. By this I take it to principally mean boss fights. There are plenty of boss fights in T2 where there is party damage and the OP should take adavantage of these opportunities to get a threat lead. DoL/DoB are two of the tools for that. Healing Breath is another if you take Sentinel.

    Furthermore, you implied that more damage scaled linearly with more healing from Salv/Rep. Not so. Justicar abilities produce roughly 2.5 times the healing of a non Justicar ability. I do not use Lightning Hammer as it does only similar threat as SoJ in most cases due to the inferior healing threat. I quote your (very useful) ability scaling from another thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by Asmiroth View Post
    I wanted to test it out a bit more and with about 550SP and 5 minutes on the dummies, I get the following:

    Sovereignty - 300
    Bolt of Radiance - 290
    Doctrine of Authority - 220
    Lightning Hammer - 230 (110+40*3)
    Precept of Refuge - 210
    Strike of Judgment - 200
    Even Justice - 170
    Massive Blow - 140
    Censure - 135

    They don't all scale the same but close enough to keep the spread considering we aren't running 1000+ SP and that should give you an idea of what should be in a macro and in what order - if you want a macro.
    So SoJ does 200 x 4 damage threat = 800 plus a further 200 for the healing on yourself only assuming you're not full. If there are any other bar gaps add 200 threat each up to a maximum of 6 (so one pet possibly) for a maximum of 2000 threat.

    Lightning Hammer does 230 = 920 damage threat plus a further 92 = 1012 upto a maximum of 1517. So it does more threat if your bar is full, but only a tiny bit more if not. For this, I have the threat backloaded over 6 seconds and I don't get a conviction (or the possibility of two). Furthermore, if you have Stormborn Jolt there is absolutely no need to use Lightning Hammer anyway as threat is likely to become a non-issue. For me though, despite the longer CD, DoA is a better choice for threat than even Jolt as explained in my previous post. It is also a slightly better defensive spec.

    However, the point I was trying to make is that healing threat is often over-looked by those used to more conventional tanking. Realise that our healing, though seeming quite small numbers compared to the healers, generate a lot of additional threat and for that reason a Justi tank should have one eye on the raid bars to build up a threat lead.

  12. #12
    Telaran Asmiroth's Avatar
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    I think the point is being missed. I don't disagree with healing threat and scaling. Obviously Justicar abilities will heal for more than any other soul.

    My point is that from a basic standpoint, you should not be relying on heals to generate threat. DoA should be used on cooldown if you are below 90% regardless of the status of the rest of the team. I can assure you that starting a fight with 4 convictions and using heals will not keep the enemy on you.

    DoL has a 10 meter range, meaning your are likely to hit a grand total of 2 people when you use it. If find the only times that I press that button is either a) when the group is stacked/pulled onto me and there is AE damage or b) dead phases in boss fights where a top-up is useful and you are within range (Caelia, Cyclorax, Scarn...)

    From a math perspective, let's say each point of damage = 1 threat - ignoring healing threat completely. As a tank your average damage will be 200 and the average damage of a DPS will be 500. With MoL you are dealing 600 threat and they are dealing 500. From a practical perspective, we can essentially translate DPS into Threat. A tank is running about 250-300 and a DPS should be above 800. So we have 900 threat vs 800, enough to scrape by. Salvation gives 4% of that DPS in heals and let's suppose that 1 heal = 1 threat. You are at 936 threat. Reparation is a 25% threat increase, if there is someone to heal. In a typical fight, this won't heal anyone for a large amount but let's say it does and fully at that. 225 threat per target healed or a total of about 900. (This is the same situation as using a DoL by the way, except Reparation appears to have a larger radius of 35m.) We're sitting at over 1800 threat from just using your attacks. Adding the DoA heal used on cooldown, it adds a further 175ish threat.

    DoL takes a cooldown so you essentially lose ~2000 threat while using the ability. DoL healing for the same amount, 225 per target, provides 1125 threat, 1000 less that just regular play. DoL healing for full (375x5) 1875, still lower than standard DPS. In the most perfect world, DoL would need to heal 7 people for the full amount to negate the loss of DPS and threat.



    Unless you are a fresh-geared tank heading into a T1 with a raid-geared DPS, simply using your highest DPS abilities, in sequence as mentioned, will be enough to maintain aggro on any single target. Heal when it is needed not at the expense of DPS.

    Maybe once the API is open and we can see the mechanics behind threat we can flesh this out further.

  13. #13
    Telaran Asmiroth's Avatar
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    Forgot to mention that using DoA as the first strike ability will generate somewhere near 3000 threat, if everyone is fully affected. That is the primary reason people use it to start combat. Also one of the primary reasons why being shielded to start combat is not a good idea.

    The odds of you entering combat with the group under 100% is wholely dependent on your relationship with your healer

  14. #14
    Ascendant Stay's Avatar
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    Are we sure that healing does the same threat as damage in a 1:1 ratio?

    I'll believe someone who has tested it, but it doesn't feel like it in gameplay. The guy doing 1900HPS of group heals never pulls aggro, but the guy doing 1300DPS often does.

    Also, if healing:damage was 1:1, then just spamming DoB on yourself every time you were under 90% would be better threat than actually attacking. This certainly does not feel like the case. ~450 DoB on a 1.5s GCD is about 300HPS. Or 1200HPS for threat purposes. Do we really think spamming little 450 DoBs is going to hold threat off an 1150DPS player?

    edit: there are a fair number of t2 fights where I do 1000+HPS if solo healing. I can almost guarantee that 1000+DPS would pull off the tanks in most of these groups. But 1000+HPS doesn't.
    Last edited by Stay; 06-20-2011 at 11:30 AM.

  15. #15
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asmiroth View Post

    From a math perspective, let's say each point of damage = 1 threat - ignoring healing threat completely. As a tank your average damage will be 200 and the average damage of a DPS will be 500. With MoL you are dealing 600 threat and they are dealing 500. From a practical perspective, we can essentially translate DPS into Threat. A tank is running about 250-300 and a DPS should be above 800. So we have 900 threat vs 800, enough to scrape by. Salvation gives 4% of that DPS in heals and let's suppose that 1 heal = 1 threat. You are at 936 threat. Reparation is a 25% threat increase, if there is someone to heal. In a typical fight, this won't heal anyone for a large amount but let's say it does and fully at that. 225 threat per target healed or a total of about 900. (This is the same situation as using a DoL by the way, except Reparation appears to have a larger radius of 35m.) We're sitting at over 1800 threat from just using your attacks. Adding the DoA heal used on cooldown, it adds a further 175ish threat.

    DoL takes a cooldown so you essentially lose ~2000 threat while using the ability. DoL healing for the same amount, 225 per target, provides 1125 threat, 1000 less that just regular play. DoL healing for full (375x5) 1875, still lower than standard DPS. In the most perfect world, DoL would need to heal 7 people for the full amount to negate the loss of DPS and threat.

    your math is flawed.

    you are asuming that everyone has exactly as many hp missing as reperation from one strike will heal them in the first occasion (were you got less threat with DoL). on this occasion (when everyone has just suffered 50-60damage) a simple attack is surely better.

    but on the next example were you account for the full heal of DoL you are forgetting the 400%multiplier. if it hits 5people for a 370heal as you say (mine hits for 450) then you get 5*4*370= 7400 threat compared to your less than 1.8k from your attack. the differance is huge.

    sure spamming DoL is stupid, but using it right after an aoe attack, even if it hits only 2 people (you+1more) (370*2*4= 2960) it is better than an attack.

    the only exception for this is DoA, which is currently our biggest aggro builder, since it heals for more than DoL (730hp vs 450 for me) and hits as our 3rd hardest attack (after bor and sovereign)

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