+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 18

Thread: The cleric dps build and cloth vs chain problem

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    165

    Default The cleric dps build and cloth vs chain problem

    Clerics who want to pure dps are 95%: 31/24/11 druid/shaman/inq (except maybe duke if you are on add control). Correct me if I'm wrong here; the problem that I see is that mage gear is better than cleric gear as crit scales better than spell power for our #1 dps build.

  2. #2
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,140

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mynameistaken View Post
    Clerics who want to pure dps are 95%: 31/24/11 druid/shaman/inq (except maybe duke if you are on add control). Correct me if I'm wrong here; the problem that I see is that mage gear is better than cleric gear as crit scales better than spell power for our #1 dps build.
    you are wrong.

    crit scales better than sp until a certain point, then it is sp that scales better, then again crit, and etc. there are only few builds that rely on pure crit, (p.e. 44-51point shaman) in favor of sp/crit balance. For me, sp:crit 2:1 is an optimal amount to have. with the right trinket's/runes you can have up to +160crit always up. with raid buffs +170 and +10%base chance for crit, adding the +10% you have from druid+shaman, it is almost impossible to NOT have jolt on CD even with baseline crit, after that, only lust for blood affects your dps through crits, and only ~50%of your attacks proc that.

    so a healthy balance of sp/crit is neccessarry.

  3. #3
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shroudb View Post
    you are wrong. ...

    it is almost impossible to NOT have jolt on CD even with baseline crit, after that, only lust for blood affects your dps through crits, and only ~50%of your attacks proc that..
    Nope, you're wrong. Talented Crag Hammer, Overwhelming from tier 2 Shaman tree, and Fanatic's Faith from tier 2 Inquisitor tree all boost the critical hit damage multiplier. Your crits are for 200% not 150%. A 25% crit chance with 2x crits is equivalent to a static 25% dps buff; a 50% crit chance with 2x is equivalent to a static 50% dps buff. Now run that past me again, how stacking crit won't boost your dps except through Lust for Blood?

  4. #4
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,140

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Shokwave View Post
    Nope, you're wrong. Talented Crag Hammer, Overwhelming from tier 2 Shaman tree, and Fanatic's Faith from tier 2 Inquisitor tree all boost the critical hit damage multiplier. Your crits are for 200% not 150%. A 25% crit chance with 2x crits is equivalent to a static 25% dps buff; a 50% crit chance with 2x is equivalent to a static 50% dps buff. Now run that past me again, how stacking crit won't boost your dps except through Lust for Blood?
    with 200%crit damage, it is basically 1%crit =1%damage but 5sp instead of being 1dps, is also boosted by your current % of crit.

    what crit does, is increasing your dps expontentially, in expontential curves, there is a balance in the base number (dont know how you call it in english) and in the exponent. if you go very high exponent but low base the result may be worse than going high base and low exponent. you basically need a balance of both to reach optimal number.

    if your dps is z=x^y. you need both x+y to have a good z. negletting one for another is going to harm your dps.

    from my previous testings, using full t2 bought cloth and full t2 chain, i found that if i keep a balance of 2:1 sp:crit it is best for me.

    edit: we are either way talking for crit values of above 45% if we are talking about raid buffed full t2.

    to give you an example, if you raise your dps by 10%then you have 10%more damage. if you raise your crit cance from 50%to 60% you have:
    if your dps =100 with 50% crit your dps would be 150 with 50% and 160 with 60%. 160/150 <10%.

    add to that that not all attacks of the hybrid build attacks can crit (votws, crag, eruption procs)
    Last edited by shroudb; 06-20-2011 at 12:52 AM.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shroudb View Post
    what crit does, is increasing your dps expontentially, in expontential curves, there is a balance in the base number (dont know how you call it in english) and in the exponent. if you go very high exponent but low base the result may be worse than going high base and low exponent. you basically need a balance of both to reach optimal number.
    Yep, and the way gear is itemised in Rift, stacking purely crit is going to give you enough spellpower just by accident - Int contributes a small amount, all Int gear has Wis on it that contributes more to spellpower, etc. It is only the fact that we have Sanction Heretic, Bombard, and Jolt (spells with decent spellpower contribution) in our rotations that stops us from wanting more crit than spellpower (which is the way warriors and rogues do it - more crit than ap).

  6. #6
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shroudb View Post
    with 200%crit damage, it is basically 1%crit =1%damage but 5sp instead of being 1dps, is also boosted by your current % of crit.


    if your dps is z=x^y. you need both x+y to have a good z. negletting one for another is going to harm your dps.

    from my previous testings, using full t2 bought cloth and full t2 chain, i found that if i keep a balance of 2:1 sp:crit it is best for me.

    edit: we are either way talking for crit values of above 45% if we are talking about raid buffed full t2.

    to give you an example, if you raise your dps by 10%then you have 10%more damage. if you raise your crit cance from 50%to 60% you have:
    if your dps =100 with 50% crit your dps would be 150 with 50% and 160 with 60%. 160/150 <10%.

    add to that that not all attacks of the hybrid build attacks can crit (votws, crag, eruption procs)
    (I assume you are talking about 31/24/11, correct?)
    It's not 200% though, its 215% unless you are just in a 5man, not using a witchstone. Plus Jolt uptime, plus Lust for Blood Uptime.

    Perhaps you could put some real number into your equation, because I don't know how to.

    But, tell me if these numbers work:
    If I do 1000 dps, with 1100 sp and 50% crit (round numbers for simplicity)

    If I add 100 sp...I really have no idea how much dps I just added because I don't know the sp coefficients for melee attacks, 60% for Sanction Heretic, 30% for vex, don't know any others.

    Not sure if it's as simple as this, or if the following would be accurate if someone was starting with 0% crit:

    If I add 100crit = +3.8% crit
    +3.8% crit = 1000dps*2.15*3.8%=81.7 dps

    +3.8% LfB = 1081.7dps * +30% next physical attack--suppose our physical attacks comprise 16% of our total damage (taken from a self buffed test dummy parse breakdown). 1081*16%= 173 dps of our damage is physical.
    173*115%*3.8% (half of 30%, bc I'm assuming LfB consumes itself, then recharges on next crit) = 7.6dps, if each attack could be lust for blood buffed, (ie the buff does not consume itself, but 100% crit rate would be 100% LfB uptime rather than 50% uptime) then it would be 173*130%*3.8% = 8.5 dps

    Total increase of 89.3 dps

    I don't know what crit % is required for 100% Jolt uptime. On a test dummy at 34.4% crit it is around 14.5% of total damage. Adding to higher Jolt uptime would be a significant dps increase.
    Last edited by mynameistaken; 06-21-2011 at 06:00 AM.

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    1,140

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mynameistaken View Post
    (I assume you are talking about 31/24/11, correct?)
    It's not 200% though, its 215% unless you are just in a 5man, not using a witchstone. Plus Jolt uptime, plus Lust for Blood Uptime.

    Perhaps you could put some real number into your equation, because I don't know how to.

    But, tell me if these numbers work:
    If I do 1000 dps, with 1100 sp and 50% crit (round numbers for simplicity)

    If I add 100 sp...I really have no idea how much dps I just added because I don't know the sp coefficients for melee attacks, 60% for Sanction Heretic, 30% for vex, don't know any others.

    Not sure if it's as simple as this, or if the following would be accurate if someone was starting with 0% crit:

    If I add 100crit = +3.8% crit
    +3.8% crit = 1000dps*2.15*3.8%=81.7 dps

    +3.8% LfB = 1081.7dps * +30% next physical attack--suppose our physical attacks comprise 16% of our total damage (taken from a self buffed test dummy parse breakdown). 1081*16%= 173 dps of our damage is physical.
    173*115%*3.8% (half of 30%, bc I'm assuming LfB consumes itself, then recharges on next crit) = 7.6dps, if each attack could be lust for blood buffed, (ie the buff does not consume itself, but 100% crit rate would be 100% LfB uptime rather than 50% uptime) then it would be 173*130%*3.8% = 8.5 dps

    Total increase of 89.3 dps

    I don't know what crit % is required for 100% Jolt uptime. On a test dummy at 34.4% crit it is around 14.5% of total damage. Adding to higher Jolt uptime would be a significant dps increase.
    jolt uptime raid buffed should be 100% regardless since it only needs on average 25%crit chance for that, and you have a ~minimum of 45% raid buffed with good gear.

    also witchstones only affect magical spells while weaponstones physical attacks.
    i think for the cookie cutter witchstones affect:
    jolt
    sh (not sanction)
    bombard

    and weaponstones affect:
    massive blow
    fervent (my filler)
    lightning hammer (not lightning)

    but in our dps there are skills that CAN'T crit at all, like votws, crag hammer, eruption ticks, that also throw the calculations to the air.

    i dont know the exact coefficients of all the spells either, but from what i've seen the melle attacks seems to scale linearly with the ap (i.e.1dps for 10ap).

    this is why i spoke about increase of dps by x and not increase of sp by x.

    but to give you some random numbers so that you can understand what we mean by the fact that you need to keep both in balance:

    say that in a hypothetical situation with a rotation (regardless of spec and etc) you pull 100 dps without regarding crits. and you have 50%crit chance.

    with a multiplier of 200% (2) you should have 150dps.
    now you get a piec that increase either your dps by 10 (through sp) or your crit chance by 10%:
    with the 10dps increase you would have 110dps, which would translate to 165dps.
    with the 10%crit chance you would have 100dps with 60%chance which would translate to 160dps.

    so even a mere 10dps increase is better for you than a huge 10% chance in this case.

    now lets repeat with a base dps of 1000 and same equip:
    with the 10increase dps (through sp) you would have 1010 dps which would translate to 1515dps
    with the 10% crit you would have 1000dps with 60%chance which would translate to 1600dps.

    so, even though we kept the same amount of increase, in the two scenarios it was different outcome.

    because the equation if we start to count how many physical attacks proc /cycle and what is the chance atm for lfb to be up at the time. or which stone (which/weapon) you have active to alter multiplier and start including static dps increases from non-critting but proccing effects will be a huge nuissance to make, we rely on parsers. We KNOW that we need a balance of sp/crit because the base of the calculation is constant, we just add parameters on it, but for the exact amount of balance it is far easier to run 5-6 10min parsers with various equip (lowering sp while increasing crit by a semi-static amount) to find a good equilibrioum.

    most people agree that this is ~ at 1.5-2sp :1crit.

    with chain crit gear, you can more easily reach this than with pure cloth, with a few notable exceptions like cloth t3 gloves and obvious stuff that are better when using cloth rather than chain.
    Last edited by shroudb; 06-21-2011 at 07:12 AM.

  8. #8
    Champion
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    543

    Default

    you'd think trion would just restrict armor classes to the proper calling and say "this is how we intended it," be done with it, and done with the silly cloth vs chain debates. For some silly reason, "i'll play how i want to play and you play how you want to play" doesn't seem to work
    In reference to someone else:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gany
    QFDumb
    In reference to me:
    Quote Originally Posted by Seniella
    QFAwesome.
    Unrelated Posts

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie328 View Post
    you'd think trion would just restrict armor classes to the proper calling and say "this is how we intended it," be done with it, and done with the silly cloth vs chain debates. For some silly reason, "i'll play how i want to play and you play how you want to play" doesn't seem to work
    Adding variety to the game adds interest, removing choices makes for a boring game.

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shroudb View Post

    with a multiplier of 200% (2) you should have 150dps.
    now you get a piec that increase either your dps by 10 (through sp) or your crit chance by 10%:
    with the 10dps increase you would have 110dps, which would translate to 165dps.
    with the 10%crit chance you would have 100dps with 60%chance which would translate to 160dps.

    so even a mere 10dps increase is better for you than a huge 10% chance in this case.

    now lets repeat with a base dps of 1000 and same equip:
    with the 10increase dps (through sp) you would have 1010 dps which would translate to 1515dps
    with the 10% crit you would have 1000dps with 60%chance which would translate to 1600dps.

    so, even though we kept the same amount of increase, in the two scenarios it was different outcome.

    .
    Thanks for the response.

    Taking the numbers for the 1000 base dps scenario. You've added 10% crit which is 263 crit rating.
    To get something usefull we need a stat weight on sp to compare sc.
    -I'm going to add 5% crit dmg for a witchstone, accounting for it only hitting several of our hardest hitting spells and 20dps for LfB also, so we'll call +10% crit 1700dps.

    What would adding 263 spell power give us. The tooltip for spell power calls it a 52.6 dps upgrade.
    I guess this is what you're saying about parses, until we know all the coefficients of all our attacks, or are able to run a parse by adding a certain amount of sp without changing crit, we won't know.
    Last edited by mynameistaken; 06-21-2011 at 07:54 AM.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    165

    Default

    or is it 1650?

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer Hokonoso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    4,692

    Default

    eventually it wont matter. all the token gear will have sp and crit on it and all the jewelry will be focus jewelry due to needing 320 focus/hit, only place you can really itemize is the source machine...
    Useful Rogue guides since I don't want to answer 50 billion questions anymore:
    Marksman, Ranger, Nightblade, Blink'Blade, Asstalker, Assdancer, and finally The Hoko Spec™
    Hoko, teaching noobs the way of rogue pve until 12/20/11.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hokonoso View Post
    eventually it wont matter. all the token gear will have sp and crit on it and all the jewelry will be focus jewelry due to needing 320 focus/hit, only place you can really itemize is the source machine...
    Pretty sure cloth will always be crit heavier than chain, which is where this post originated from.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Mayi's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,660

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by shroudb View Post
    jolt uptime raid buffed should be 100% regardless since it only needs on average 25%crit chance for that, and you have a ~minimum of 45% raid buffed with good gear.

    also witchstones only affect magical spells while weaponstones physical attacks.
    i think for the cookie cutter witchstones affect:
    jolt
    sh (not sanction)
    bombard

    and weaponstones affect:
    massive blow
    fervent (my filler)
    lightning hammer (not lightning)

    but in our dps there are skills that CAN'T crit at all, like votws, crag hammer, eruption ticks, that also throw the calculations to the air.

    i dont know the exact coefficients of all the spells either, but from what i've seen the melle attacks seems to scale linearly with the ap (i.e.1dps for 10ap).

    this is why i spoke about increase of dps by x and not increase of sp by x.

    but to give you some random numbers so that you can understand what we mean by the fact that you need to keep both in balance:

    say that in a hypothetical situation with a rotation (regardless of spec and etc) you pull 100 dps without regarding crits. and you have 50%crit chance.

    with a multiplier of 200% (2) you should have 150dps.
    now you get a piec that increase either your dps by 10 (through sp) or your crit chance by 10%:
    with the 10dps increase you would have 110dps, which would translate to 165dps.
    with the 10%crit chance you would have 100dps with 60%chance which would translate to 160dps.

    so even a mere 10dps increase is better for you than a huge 10% chance in this case.

    now lets repeat with a base dps of 1000 and same equip:
    with the 10increase dps (through sp) you would have 1010 dps which would translate to 1515dps
    with the 10% crit you would have 1000dps with 60%chance which would translate to 1600dps.

    so, even though we kept the same amount of increase, in the two scenarios it was different outcome.

    because the equation if we start to count how many physical attacks proc /cycle and what is the chance atm for lfb to be up at the time. or which stone (which/weapon) you have active to alter multiplier and start including static dps increases from non-critting but proccing effects will be a huge nuissance to make, we rely on parsers. We KNOW that we need a balance of sp/crit because the base of the calculation is constant, we just add parameters on it, but for the exact amount of balance it is far easier to run 5-6 10min parsers with various equip (lowering sp while increasing crit by a semi-static amount) to find a good equilibrioum.

    most people agree that this is ~ at 1.5-2sp :1crit.

    with chain crit gear, you can more easily reach this than with pure cloth, with a few notable exceptions like cloth t3 gloves and obvious stuff that are better when using cloth rather than chain.
    I agree 100%. Clerics should never have been rolling on mage gear to begin with, it was from theorycrafting instead of just hitting a dummy and seeing what happens. They missed too much in their models and came to the wrong conclusion.

    The only builds you consistently need crit more then sp for is sentinel and cabalist, where crit is a lot better but you still need a good ratio. I've been saying this for over a month, it's nice to see someone else finally tested it. The difference is even larger in 51 point builds with sp modifiers.
    Last edited by Mayi; 06-22-2011 at 06:53 AM.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    165

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mynameistaken View Post

    +3.8% LfB = 1081.7dps * +30% next physical attack--suppose our physical attacks comprise 16% of our total damage (taken from a self buffed test dummy parse breakdown). 1081*16%= 173 dps of our damage is physical.
    173*115%*3.8% (half of 30%, bc I'm assuming LfB consumes itself, then recharges on next crit) = 7.6dps, if each attack could be lust for blood buffed, (ie the buff does not consume itself, but 100% crit rate would be 100% LfB uptime rather than 50% uptime) then it would be 173*130%*3.8% = 8.5 dps
    I mistakenly calculted LfB's proc only on physical crits, when it actually procs on any melee attack and applies it's damage to the next physical attack. Correcting this mistake should increase the dps of LfB significantly.
    Last edited by mynameistaken; 06-22-2011 at 09:30 PM.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts