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Thread: With the 10% magic damage reduction how do justicars stack up in that department?

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    General of Telara Siegmund's Avatar
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    Default With the 10% magic damage reduction how do justicars stack up in that department?

    Can't seem to find any hard numbers as comparison. Where will we sit now with regards to Warriors and Rogues?

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    Rift Chaser Bobopedic's Avatar
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    Still not even close, unfortunately.
    This puts us at something like 26%, while rogues and warrior are somewhere around 45ish.
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    General of Telara Siegmund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobopedic View Post
    Still not even close, unfortunately.
    This puts us at something like 26%, while rogues and warrior are somewhere around 45ish.
    Well it's something anyway. It's a shame our heals can't be more useful in this regard (active magic "reduction" vs passive).

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Radak's Avatar
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    Well lets see we got 15% from Shield of Faith, 3% from tick skinned and 10% from the new Thorvin's Law.

    What we get is this 1-((1-0.15)*(1-0.03)*(1-0.1))=25.79% less magic damage taken.

    Accoding to Ciderhelm who is the warrior equivalent of me a correctly specced warrior has the following:
    Void with talent 20%, Imbued armor 5%, Crest mastery 9%, Hardened will 9%, Power of the masses up to 10%

    What they get is this 1-((1-0.2)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.09)*(1-0.09)*(1-0.1))=43.36% less magic damage taken. (this is equal to the value ciderhelm gives for this spec)

    Now you can say that's only 43.36-25.79=17.57% more damage taken. However this is not the case.

    To make this clear we make a easy example.
    A boss does an attack that deal 10k magic damage.
    The warrior will take 10000*(1-0.4336)=5664 damage
    A cleric will take 10000*(1-0.2579)=7421 damage

    Now if we look at the difference that's 7421-5664= 1757 more damage
    1757 / 5664 = 31.0% more damage taken.

    And 31% more damage taken is still far to big of a difference (against a rogue it's even more at around 37%).
    Cleric tanking: Justicar guide | Justicar spreadsheet and item list
    Defence is as much a part of war as offense, the shield as important a tool as the sword.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radak View Post
    Well lets see we got 15% from Shield of Faith, 3% from tick skinned and 10% from the new Thorvin's Law.

    What we get is this 1-((1-0.15)*(1-0.03)*(1-0.1))=25.79% less magic damage taken.

    Accoding to Ciderhelm who is the warrior equivalent of me a correctly specced warrior has the following:
    Void with talent 20%, Imbued armor 5%, Crest mastery 9%, Hardened will 9%, Power of the masses up to 10%

    What they get is this 1-((1-0.2)*(1-0.05)*(1-0.09)*(1-0.09)*(1-0.1))=43.36% less magic damage taken. (this is equal to the value ciderhelm gives for this spec)

    Now you can say that's only 43.36-25.79=17.57% more damage taken. However this is not the case.

    To make this clear we make a easy example.
    A boss does an attack that deal 10k magic damage.
    The warrior will take 10000*(1-0.4336)=5664 damage
    A cleric will take 10000*(1-0.2579)=7421 damage

    Now if we look at the difference that's 7421-5664= 1757 more damage
    1757 / 5664 = 31.0% more damage taken.

    And 31% more damage taken is still far to big of a difference (against a rogue it's even more at around 37%).
    Radak,

    Can you reference the extra healing from the Shammy tree?

    Do the warriors get this at all? Does this effect the end result of the clerics health pool versing the other tanks?

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Radak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JusticarToki View Post
    Radak,

    Can you reference the extra healing from the Shammy tree?

    Do the warriors get this at all? Does this effect the end result of the clerics health pool versing the other tanks?
    First of in the magic tanking spec warriors do not have the increased healing taken. As it's only on the warlord souls which is not used in that build.

    The second thing is it's really hard to give a value to it. First lets look at two extremes:
    First if it's a really big hit that will simple instantly kill us before healers even have the time to react so then it does nothing at all. Here a 10% less damage taken might just have saved your live.
    Now if it is a slow incoming stream of damage it's still far worse then 10% less damage taken as there will be a lot of overhealing from the healers. In this case the 10% less damage taken also doesn't do that much and they will be about equal. But in this case magic damage isn't a problem and will never kill us.

    Only when the damage is higher enough to not have overhealing (or less then 10%) but slow enough to not kill us in 1-2 hits will it have any real effect. And as a result it's far worse then taking 10% less damage as it often does nothing. Also note when there is a healing debuff like greenscale the more healing taken simple does far less then taking 10% less damage.

    However even if we fully take it into account at the same level as 10% less damage taken we are still looking at this:
    1-((1-0.15)*(1-0.03)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.1))=33.22%

    And we would still be taking 17.9% more damage as a result. But like I said the 10% more healing taken unfortunately simple is far inferior to 10% less damage taken.
    Cleric tanking: Justicar guide | Justicar spreadsheet and item list
    Defence is as much a part of war as offense, the shield as important a tool as the sword.

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    I guess it starts to really show the difference in fights like greenscales.

    As while it increases incoming heals, does it increase the value of the purifirer shields which are such an important part of the healing in this fight? I am guessing not?

    Its an interesting thought however to wonder that during other fights when there is little chance of being one shot, and as you point out, and reasonable amount of overhealing to the MT, what is the net effect on the increase to effective healing done by the healer..
    Last edited by JusticarToki; 06-19-2011 at 03:00 PM.

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Radak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JusticarToki View Post
    I guess it starts to really show the difference in fights like greenscales.
    Another good example is Plutonus which does a chocking cipher which always hits for 75% of max health (does not get reduced by magic damage mitigition). And this is often followed by a thunderclap which deals death damage.
    No amount of healing taken increase could save you from this potential one shot however magic damage reduction makes the thunderclap a non-lethal hit and then your healers got 1-2 gcd to heal you up a bit before the next normal hit comes again.

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticarToki View Post
    As while it increases incoming heals, does it increase the value of the purifirer shields which are such an important part of the healing in this fight? I am guessing not?
    No it does not effects the purifier or your own shields at all (not it does effect your own heals, including reprieve) which is another reason which is inferior to a damage reduction.

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticarToki View Post
    Its an interesting thought however to wonder that during other fights when there is little chance of being one shot, and as you point out, and reasonable amount of overhealing to the MT, what is the net effect on the increase to effective healing done by the healer..
    Actually now that I think back damage reduction stays a little bit better even in the slow incoming damage situation. The reason for this is that your healers might be incapacitated for some time because of certain fight mechanics (they slacked on blinding bomb for example or got the don't do anything on Guurloth or Galenir). In this case the damage reduction might keep you alive long enough till the healers are able to heal you again. However the increased healing does nothing while your healers are temporarily out of service.

    The biggest reason why the 10% increased healing isn't that good is simple because of the large amount of overhealing going on in a lot of fight but I already said that.
    Cleric tanking: Justicar guide | Justicar spreadsheet and item list
    Defence is as much a part of war as offense, the shield as important a tool as the sword.

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    Telaran
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    does Salvation count for anything? I'm assuming not as it's all about the fact that we get one shot by magic bosses
    Last edited by Zero2Peer; 06-19-2011 at 05:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero2Peer View Post
    does Salvation count for anything? I'm assuming not as it's all about the fact that we get one shot by magic bosses
    Its an incredibly small amount of hp recovered, and negligible when you factor in any over-healing from healers.

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    While Radak has the numbers, and it's clear that clerics do and probably always will take more magic damage than the other classes, so far I've not really seen it has a problem. I've tanked every fight in RoS/GSB as a cleric tank and it's really not an issue. The way I see it is that we put out a ton of extra healing. Most fights I parse 500-700HPS while tanking. I spam DoL a lot to make up for the extra damage I take. However, that said, Radak is right, when something comes along that could possibly 1 shot a cleric tank, no matter the amount of extra healing I put out it's not going to save my life. We have other things we can do to help mitigate the damage taken from magic, like shields (Glacial Shield and Just Defense), but really at a total of 764 + 2180 damage absorbed it's not helpful in most situations, such as a breath attack. Also, they don't stack, which makes them even more useless.

    All that said though, if you have good healers clerics can tank anything. We don't have to use anymore healers when I'm tanking compared to a rogue tank. Also, another good thing to note is that clerics take a lot less physical damage than rogue tanks, so on fights such as greenscale, it's easier to top me off once the breath is done compared to a rogue, as I take little to no damage from his melee. Usually somewhere around 500 a swing from his melee, blocked, 0 if I parry, which happens often.

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    You're....just making up numbers.

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    Looking at the increased healing, and total mitigation we get to run, with a buff in 1.3 with the changes to the parry / dodge set ups, the buffs to the essences, addition of the magic damage reduction and the increase in the AoE healing we can pull as there is not a easliy reachable SP parry cap, would it be safe to say that the cleric would have the strongest alrounder build come 1.3?

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    RIFT Community Ambassador Radak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yavi View Post
    While Radak has the numbers, and it's clear that clerics do and probably always will take more magic damage than the other classes, so far I've not really seen it has a problem. I've tanked every fight in RoS/GSB as a cleric tank and it's really not an issue. The way I see it is that we put out a ton of extra healing. Most fights I parse 500-700HPS while tanking. I spam DoL a lot to make up for the extra damage I take. However, that said, Radak is right, when something comes along that could possibly 1 shot a cleric tank, no matter the amount of extra healing I put out it's not going to save my life. We have other things we can do to help mitigate the damage taken from magic, like shields (Glacial Shield and Just Defense), but really at a total of 764 + 2180 damage absorbed it's not helpful in most situations, such as a breath attack. Also, they don't stack, which makes them even more useless.
    When looking at your HPS in the different combat trackers please not that the absorb effects from purifiers are added to your healing and not theirs. This will in some cases lower the hps you see by a very large mount.

    Also the shield are very situational as the incoming damage isn't always announced. For example lets take plutonus again. Both the 75% of health chocking cipher and thunderclap don't have a visible timer/castbar as a result you can't really time your shields as using them early will just result in them being used by a normal hit. And using them after is... often no longer possible as your dead (unless you currently stack resistance) and even if you survive it isn't needed any more as healers got time to heal you to full hp again.
    On fights like greenscale they are usefull as the breath has a cast bar so you can time it correctly and absorb some of the damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by skylined View Post
    You're....just making up numbers.
    Tell we which numbers I made up.
    (here is the warrior guide with numbers: http://ciderhelm.com/?p=554)

    Quote Originally Posted by JusticarToki View Post
    Looking at the increased healing, and total mitigation we get to run, with a buff in 1.3 with the changes to the parry / dodge set ups, the buffs to the essences, addition of the magic damage reduction and the increase in the AoE healing we can pull as there is not a easliy reachable SP parry cap, would it be safe to say that the cleric would have the strongest alrounder build come 1.3?
    Yes we will probably the best all-round tank and we might become the preferred tank in fight with some raid damage and no magic damage on the tank. As we basicly give free raid healing compared to a warrior or rogue in those situations.

    However you say our AoE healing will increase as there is no longer a SP cap because of devout deflection change. This is not true however as strength is still our best stat and as a result you should still stack this in your sigil and runes. So your SP won't increase with this patch.

    Also note that the change to lessers will not only affect us but also rogues and warriors so that won't suddenly give us an edge compared to them.
    Cleric tanking: Justicar guide | Justicar spreadsheet and item list
    Defence is as much a part of war as offense, the shield as important a tool as the sword.

  15. #15
    Shadowlander Shubah's Avatar
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    I think a alot of people are forgetting the massive AOE healing we can pump out. As long as they would change our 51 pointer into something that would boost agro slightly it would be nice.
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