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Thread: Compilation of what's wrong with Cleric and possible fixes.

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    Plane Walker Lifeline's Avatar
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    Default Compilation of what's wrong with Cleric and possible fixes.

    Zinbik is the Cleric dev, and I thought us forum trolls could make an honest attempt of bringing to his attention what we would like to see done with cleric. I'd love to see people say what they feel is wrong with the class, and then offer a suggestion on how to fix it. While dev's may know a problem exist it's not always certain they know how to solve it.

    Cabalist

    Lurking Decay - I enjoy the idea of LD's, but the way the are obtained is atrocious. Two possible fixes I suggest are creating a buff for cabalist that's similar to cavalier on Justicar where when you deal Death Damage you generate 1 LD. (obviously obliterate and tyranny would be exempt) Basically Decay makes the way this class plays very stop/go instead of the smoothness that you find with justicar's class mechanic.

    Bound Fate - This spell is so similar to Shadow Touch that it's seems like just filler. Maybe if you increase the CD on it to 15-20 seconds and have it generate a LD for every enemy hit. This would make it unique and very engaging

    Dark Passage - What a horrific spell this is. Not entirely sure what the point is in spending a gcd to randomly teleport somewhere. Please at least mimic flicker from pyro if you're not going to take the time to make a unique and useful teleport.

    Sigil's - With the CC immunity coming with 1.2 Sigil's in pvp are going to lose a lot of their flare as such I think they can be better tuned to PvE now. Perhaps dramatically reduce the CD's on them by making every sigil have a 60sec cd with a branch to reduce cd to 30sec, and make them stack. This would mean a careless cabalist in pvp would essentially cc immune an entire group in about 5seconds, which i wouldn't consider OP - yet make sigils much more viable in PvE.

    Druid


    Slumber - Not entirely sure what use this spell plays. 2sec cast for a 10sec sleep makes this spell impractical in pvp because of the cast time, and of no use in pve because of the short duration and long CD.
    Perhaps make it more akin to dominators Transmorgify.

    Wild Strike - Pretty sure this ability requires a target while Even Justice and Avalanche Strike do not.

    Satyr - This pet used to add a significant buff to a raid that was unique to Druid, and now you've nerf'd the buff and made it not stack in raid. (I believe) Please give Satyr back a Unique Raid melee dps buff to make up for it's poor dps.

    Greater Farie - Please give Greater Farie a unique Raid caster dps buff.

    Inquisitor

    Bolt of Judgement - Plain and simple this spell needs a damage increase. Decay from cabalist does better dps, and it's just a spell you use to build up LD's to do your actual dps... Please make this spell scale the same as Light Bolt from Sentinel at least. Rank 10 Light bolt - 111-116 vs BoJ - 122-126 when you actually parse them though Light Bolt does about 20% more damage then BoJ. - from PTS

    Bewilder - Please increase the duration from 8 to 12 seconds to give us a little more breathing room to dps between cast when used in PvE

    Lethargy - this ability is actually mildly useless because of the ngcd ability Impede. Perhaps make it a snare? Also this ability currently procs with aggressive renewal even without a point allotted to it in PST

    Spiritual Protection - another inferior aoe buff that's overwritten in raids. Swap this with Shroud of Agony and buff it so that it's unique and contributes to raid resistance. Or make it a unique individual buff and increase resistance given to 50

    Shroud of Agony - this spell should be easier to obtain from this tree. It's a 20% chance to proc a DoT - both of these dictate easier to obtain then 40 pts, or change it 60% chance to proc with dot / 20% chance to proc with instant damage.

    Nysyr's Rebuke - Total rework needed on this ability. Generally for a dps class the 51pt is suppose to supplement that dps in some way not hamper it. Without crits this does like 280dps with a stun attached - you realize that Aggressive Renewal does better dps now?

    Justicar


    Doctrine of Valiance - It's hard for any justicar to not /facepalm when they look at this ability. In a nutshell worst ability in the game imo. Consumes all convictions doing marginal damage and healing for less then DoB. Possible fix for this is make the consumed convictions significantly increase the damage done and lower the healing to equivalent amount. IE can hit for 1k, and heal for 1k. Other Ideas I've heard are adding a Magic Buff effect to it - possibly reduces magic damage taken by 5% per conviction for 60 seconds. Another is 3% per conviction and can stack up to 10 times for 60 seconds. Another possibility is splash damage to this ability that adds addtional threat

    Mein of Magic Mitigation - People are scared that if a justicar can mitigate magic then they'll be unstoppable. I partly concur with that So I believe one option might be to Modify Leadership to allow the block/parry of magic attacks which avoids a straight damage mitigation or crating another Mein all together. Give justicar the option to choose either physical tank mode or magic tank mode with say a 20% damage reduction from magic with an additional 1% with every point spent over 36, 120% increase to endurance and 300% increase to threat. Maybe make it root 36

    Interdict - I love the spell, but it's actual usefulness is near nil. Give justicar a ranged silence silence to replace this spell. This will help justicar pull casters in since we can't spec for an actual pull.

    Safe Haven - this spell should increase the damage mitigated by an additional 5% so you don't see every justicar running around with STR/Block essences.

    Devout Deflection - You give us an ability which caps our parry at 20% in t1 gear, and you still insist on giving us parry in our tank gear. drop this to a 2pt ability with 135% parry which a 1pt ability above it that enables you to parry magic attacks.

    Purifier

    Healing Blessing - Remove this entirely and replace it with a AoE shield reactive on the cleric. When the cleric takes damage shields the 5 members of the party/raid for 300 - scalable with SP! Largest problem with purifier is AoE healing, and I think this sort of a reactive will give purifier a very creative way to help supplement surging flames.

    Shields Scale with SP - Please make shields scale with spell power. A purifier in greens is nearly as effective as a purifier in epics. The disparity between a well geared purifier and a well geared Sentinel or Warden when compared to a poorly geared equivalent is huge. Purifier currently just hits a wall.

    Latent Blaze - Staying with the theme of the Purifier I believe this ability should proc an equivalent Shield instead of a Heal.

    In Combat Battle Rez - Further up the tree then 36 pts so only one battle rez can be specced for.

    Sentinel

    Life's Return - please lower this ability to a 5min cd. One of the great advantages of the chloro over cleric healers is it's battle rez. The fact that Clerics have an inferior battle rez, and only one class actually has it is kind of mind boggling.

    Vigilance - To be honest I'm not all together a large fan of this ability. It should be called Foresight because it expects you to anticipate the target to nearly die in the next 10 seconds, and spend a gcd on Sentinel... which is the biggest # heals for cleric. This ability would be much better suited to Warden giving them some breathing room for unanticipated spikes. I'd much prefer Sentinel have something akin to Latent Blaze from purifier. The Heal from Vigilance should have a 100% chance of procing Serendipity.

    Shaman

    Mighty Blow - The much discussed ability of Shaman which the class is suppose to be built around, and yet is simply horrid. The damage from this ability needs to be doubled. It hits for less then Bolt of depravity, require melee range, and has a 15sec cd. I think BoD and Mighty Blow should be equivalent in damage. Other ideas on how to improve MB that I've seen are increasing damage dealt and changing Brutalize to air damage in essence making it a 60% of damage dealt proc if you are 5/5 in Stormborn. Another idea is to take Mighty Blow off the gcd making the idea of resetting it much more provocative.

    Vengeance of the Winter Storm - You can't possibly be aware that this does water damage, and have simply ignored it so far. All of Shaman is built around air... this isn't stormcaller. We don't want water so please make it air damage.

    Vengeance of the Frozen Earth - With changes to PvP I don't see this ability every being used again. No one used it in PvE so essentially shaman now has a dead skill. How about you make it similar to Swift Shot where increases movement by 2% can stack up to 5 times. I think movement speed buff stays with the theme of air.

    Glacial Shield - Reduce the damage reflected increase the amount shielded and make it air damage

    Thick Skinned - Change to some form of magic mitigation possibly. 3pts for 3% is pretty bad imo. move it to the second branch and change it to 2% a pt making it equivalent to ranger maybe, or better yet get rid of it and add in another 3pts to help supplement shaman dps.

    Templar

    Arcane Avoidance - 5pts for 5resistance to every element. Every cleric looks at this branch passive and scratches their head in puzzlement. I think what you mean this ability to be is each point spent you receive 5pts of resistance giving you 25pts of resistance to every element.

    Ethereal Shield - Templar damage mitigation was a bit over the top, but I think you went seriously overboard with the changes you are purposing. Please change the duration to 8seconds which will see us through the chain CC that every cleric experiences and increase the cd to say... 26seconds.

    Rolling with the Punches - If you're going to nerf abilities then please fix abilities too. Currently if a ally falls below 50% and you heal them over 50% then this ability will not proc. AKA good luck ever getting this ability to proc and the target player surviving long enough to make use of it.

    Echos of the Ascension - Why this ability is even in a pvp soul and not pve is kind of weird in itself, but making it a 15min cd is a bit over the top. If it's going to be 15min then at least give us 100% health when we rez, or reduce the cd and maintain the 20% currently.

    Spirits of Life - Make this AoE up to 5 members within a 5 meter range. People can gather on it to get healed, but they run the risk of grouping together.

    Warden

    IMO clerics best class as far as symmetry goes. Largest fall back of this soul isn't the soul itself as much as the games UI.

    In Combat Battle Rez - Further up the tree then 36 pts so only one battle rez can be specced for.

    Please contribute to this thread with sensible fixes to some of the problems you see within the cleric souls so we can give our Dev a resource for addressing what's wrong and ways to fix it. Use the template I've been using above if you would so they can be distinguished from trolling and non constructive feedback.

    Class

    Ability - Problem followed by possible Solution.
    Last edited by Lifeline; 05-07-2011 at 10:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeline View Post
    Zinbik is the Cleric dev, and I thought us forum trolls could make an honest attempt of bringing to his attention what we would like to see done with cleric. I'd love to see people say what they feel is wrong with the class, and then offer a suggestion on how to fix it. While dev's may know a problem exist it's not always certain they know how to solve it.

    Doctrine of Valiance - It's hard for any justicar to not /facepalm when they look at this ability. In a nutshell worst ability in the game imo. Consumes all convictions doing marginal damage and healing for less then DoB. Possible fix for this is make the consumed convictions significantly increase the damage done and lower the healing to equivalent amount. IE can hit for 1k, and heal for 1k. Other Ideas I've heard are adding a Magic Buff effect to it - possibly reduces magic damage taken by 5% per conviction for 60 seconds. Another is 3% per conviction and can stack up to 10 times for 60 seconds. Another possibility is splash damage to this ability that adds addtional threat
    I agree, remove Doctrine of Valiance, its completely useless it barely heals for more than Doctrine of Bliss, only time you really see if heal for more than Bliss is on a big crit (few and far between), but it will spend all of your convictions to do it (max 4), when you could get a heal of equal amount with 1 conviction with Bliss. So yea its useless talent.

    What they should do there is make a talent that when your capped out at 4 convictions, then next time you use a life damage ability (thus proccing a conviction that goes to waste because your already 4 capped) it auto spends that conviction (that would go to waste) on the doctrine / precept of your choice off the global cooldown (possibly at a 50% loss for doctrines only so its not OP, no change to precept for it though)

    This would obviously need testing and more thought behind it.

    Possibly also make it so this talent only works while using Mien of Honor, I dunno, would take more discussion / testing, but I think it would be really cool.

    This effect would only happen when your capped out at 4 convictions so extra ones your generating aren't going to waste.

    So you can still spend / use your convictions normally, but when your using your GCDs on attack abilities or something else other than doctrines or precepts and you are already capped at 4 convictions there is also something else happening other than you wasting a bunch of procs / convictions / resources while capped at 4.

    A change like this would go a long way to make hybrid dps / support (off heals) specs that use justicar more useful and chloro like while not tanking.

    That and possibly make Righteous Mandate (Justicar's version of Synthesis) better would be cool too, because right now Righteous Mandate is very, very, very lackluster.

    It it wasn't for Doctrine of Righteousness and Reprieve the ability would be useless, because its passive effect only works when at full health, and even then heals for crap. I just feel it could be alot more useful of a ability outside of Righteousness and Reprieve.

  3. #3
    Prophet of Telara NatashaK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melatine View Post
    What they should do there is make a talent that when your capped out at 4 convictions, then next time you use a life damage ability (thus proccing a conviction that goes to waste because your already 4 capped) it auto spends that conviction (that would go to waste) on the doctrine / precept of your choice off the global cooldown (possibly at a 50% loss for doctrines only so its not OP, no change to precept for it though)
    Yeah, I would love to see something like this. for the most part when you're hitting something you're not really using the convictions. Then there's other times you're just dying to tag something to get an AoE heal off.

    And DoV is indeed useless in it's present form.

    The other option would be to make Just tanks even weaker with no convictions but very strong as they build them up. Then make the doctrines all much stronger than they are now. So blowing your convictions had a real cost associated with it. I see this as something of a mirror to the VK pact mechanic, which has some good things but is somewhat half baked as well.

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    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    I completely agree with Echos of the Ascension. I dont even think that 20% health is the worst part, its the 20% mana. Why bother use it when i can respawn and full health and full mp?

    You covered quite a bit of the problems.

    Cabalist needs some fluidity, and with the upcoming CC nerfs, a few more options on control.

    Sentinels have too many useless skills (banish, Luminous, PtF (its useless on the sentinel) righteous burden), or skills in the wrong places (Shared recovery should be lowered, the first cure is at 16 points? Healing grace at 6 points? Its more a basic heal than HB) and not one of them cures mana.

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeline View Post
    Interdict - I love the spell, but it's actual usefulness is near nil. Give justicar a ranged silence silence to replace this spell. This will help justicar pull casters in since we can't spec for an actual pull.
    One bit I must chip in on - for the love of god do not remove our one and only spell interrupt. It more often than not falls on the tank to interrupt special boss mechanics that will 1 shot or severely damage them (eg 2nd DSM boss, to a lesser extent pyro boss in FoLH), or heal the boss a lot (xIT three kings, possibly others I don't recall). I find interdict incredibly useful on trash too to interrupt spellcasters, reducing their damage output and preventing spikes from particularly hard hitting abilities.

    Adding a silence (instead of replacing interdict) would be "nice" but in my opinion a bit unnecessary - you can put points into sent as your third soul to pick up a lot of nice stuff that helps on trash in experts:

    http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00...VefooR.E0xkboz

    that there will give you a healers cov if your healer doesn't have it or to rotate if they do, an aoe cleanse, protect the flock, and a 5s silence to pull a nasty caster in (if there's two then tank on one and silence the other).

    Edit : Fixed link, copied html instead of url lol
    Last edited by Armanant; 05-07-2011 at 03:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeline View Post
    Interdict - I love the spell, but it's actual usefulness is near nil. Give justicar a ranged silence silence to replace this spell. This will help justicar pull casters in since we can't spec for an actual pull.
    You do realize this is an essential ability for PvE? Have you ever tanked e.g. the 2nd Boss in DSM? I think his name is Gregory Krezlav. He has two spells that will deal damage. One is his spamskill hitting you for about 2.2-2.8k dmg. The other one is a long cast instant-kill spell. We need to be able to interrupt it, otherwise the fight is over very soon. That boss can not be silenced, but he can be interrupted.

  7. #7
    Prophet of Telara
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    purifer:

    healing flare could use an upgrade too. purifer's second problem (the first is no scaling in shields) is its dependence on long casts, this was supposed to be fixed by an instant spammble heal that costs a lot imo. the problem with flare atm is that it costs a lot but heals for nothing. this spell needs an increase in its healing capacity, i wouldn't mind it having its mp cost go up even higher, but it needs to actually work and not just tickle.

    purifer+sentinel:

    biggest complain about those 2 is that their 1.5sec+2sec casts are uselss after level 30. you simply remove them from your cast bars because they are horrible waste of hps. Giving them complimentary buffs through the talent tree would be really nice to spice up healing rotations. things that shouldn't make them OP but make them retain their usefulness.

    possible suggestions: for sentinel: as long as lasting invocation lasts, healing grace heals 2 additional targets for 40-60% of the healing that the target receives.
    for purifer: whenever healing flame crits add 1 charge to your current blessing, or whenever it crits lower the cooldown of your shild by 5-10sec (or remove the immunity with after 1.2change)
    Last edited by shroudb; 05-07-2011 at 04:11 PM.

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    Plane Walker Lifeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gessert View Post
    You do realize this is an essential ability for PvE? Have you ever tanked e.g. the 2nd Boss in DSM? I think his name is Gregory Krezlav. He has two spells that will deal damage. One is his spamskill hitting you for about 2.2-2.8k dmg. The other one is a long cast instant-kill spell. We need to be able to interrupt it, otherwise the fight is over very soon. That boss can not be silenced, but he can be interrupted.
    I guess not relying on party for the 3 bosses it's useful makes up for a spell you'd use almost every pull, and no I don't tank DSM only raids.

    Like i said though it's a really nice spell, and yes you can spec sent to get silence.
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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeline View Post
    I guess not relying on party for the 3 bosses it's useful makes up for a spell you'd use almost every pull, and no I don't tank DSM only raids.
    I'm not sure what you mean here - you realize that every pull there's casters for you to use silence on, you can use interdict to interrupt their casts right? As it's a short cooldown you can use it several times per pull too. It is an excellent preventative mitigation ability, though it does take some skill to use effectively. Just because you don't use it often doesn't mean it's bad, it might mean that you don't know how to use it properly.

    The only problem I've had with interdict is that I have had healers ask me to stop interrupting the heavy hitting casts so they would have more to do!

  10. #10
    Plane Touched Brolly's Avatar
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    For a compilation of thoughts/idea on PvE Healing as a cleric, see my comment and read all 39 pages or w/e its up to.
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    Telaran Nasq's Avatar
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    Warden Quality of Life!

    COMBAT RES - I would really like a combat res in an accessible position for a full warden spec so i can use it in a raid!

    Healing Flood - Should hit 10 people, it barely heals for anything, i don't see the point in it being a 5 player limit.

    Healing Spray - Longer Duration! Its a pretty week heal, should last longer. Maybe make one of the deluge 5/5 talents increase the duration by 5 - 10 secs.

    Cascade - Why does this cost mana to use? Make it no cost! I'd also love to see it be a raid wide thing too, restore 15% mana to 10/20 allies within X meters.
    Last edited by Nasq; 05-07-2011 at 10:43 PM.

  12. #12
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    Some thoughts about Justicar...

    One of the problems I have with Justicar tanking is that I need to get +STR essences/runes in order to maximise my avoidance. On a Wisdom/Int based class this feels counter-intuitive. Why do we need to stack STR? Because Block scales far better with STR than it does with spell power. You get 1 point Block per STR and only 0,3 Block per spell power (or 0,2 per point of Wisdom). So far, so obvious.
    In order for Wisdom to be on par with STR, spell power would need to be converted to Block at a 133% rate. Some might say that INT contributes to SP as well, but Warriors gain +Dodge from Dex, while Clerics have no +Dodge at all.
    What could be done is:
    - Remove Doctrine of Valiance and reduce Devout Deflection to a 2 point talent (capping at 130% instead of the current 195%)
    - Increase Stalwart Citadel to a 5 point talent and let it cap at 100% of spell power converted to Block.
    - Having the Precept of Refuge buff up allows the Cleric to block magic attacks. Parrying would be too much, but I feel that blocking would be a great idea.
    - Scaling on Justicar abilities needs to be addressed. Justicar attacks scale very poorly with spell/attack power. This is a problem to threat, mitigation (via self healing) and for Justicar off-healer specs. Scaling of Justicar attacks should be bumped up a bit

    Regarding the healer side of Justicars:
    Due to the lack of a support role, Justicar off healers cannot compete with Bards or Chloros. A Bard has useful buffs, while Chloros do not have raid buffs (provided the raid has an Archon) but can function as tank healers while also healing the raid.
    The options at hand are either to massively increase a Justicar's ability to DPS (by making Justicar attacks equal to Shaman/Druid attacks) or to increase healing done to Righteous Mandate to match Synthesis. Or meet half-way and fix attack/spell power scaling of Justicar attacks and add a scaling effect to Mien of Honor, increasing healing done to Righteous Mandate depending on points spent in the Justicar soul.

    OR, failing that, get rid of the Justicar's "multiple role disorder" and scrap the whole healer aspect. Keep the self healing (as a means to mitigation) and turn the Justicar into a specialised tanking soul.

    P.S.:
    What could go a long way to increasing Inquisitor damage - as I've said before - would be to increase spell power scaling on Bolt of Judgment from 30% (1,5s cast time coefficient) to the correct 40% value.
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    Ascendant Eughe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armanant View Post
    I'm not sure what you mean here - you realize that every pull there's casters for you to use silence on, you can use interdict to interrupt their casts right? As it's a short cooldown you can use it several times per pull too. It is an excellent preventative mitigation ability, though it does take some skill to use effectively. Just because you don't use it often doesn't mean it's bad, it might mean that you don't know how to use it properly.

    The only problem I've had with interdict is that I have had healers ask me to stop interrupting the heavy hitting casts so they would have more to do!
    It seems you are speaking about trash mobs now, and you know what many justicars, or even people in the party do when there is a caster far away? They silence it, it comes, and everyone aoe it down with the rest of the trash


    If you are using interdict on trash mobs, you are wasting a gcd

    It has only one use, use against things that cant be silenced. And even then, for most encounters, whatever you interrupted will cast that same skill right after its interrupted and your interrupt is on CD. I see no reason why a justi not get a silence and i would trade interdict for it 10x over.


    Regarding the healer side of Justicars:
    Due to the lack of a support role, Justicar off healers cannot compete with Bards or Chloros. A Bard has useful buffs, while Chloros do not have raid buffs (provided the raid has an Archon) but can function as tank healers while also healing the raid.
    The options at hand are either to massively increase a Justicar's ability to DPS (by making Justicar attacks equal to Shaman/Druid attacks) or to increase healing done to Righteous Mandate to match Synthesis. Or meet half-way and fix attack/spell power scaling of Justicar attacks and add a scaling effect to Mien of Honor, increasing healing done to Righteous Mandate depending on points spent in the Justicar soul.
    Justicars used to have a couple of raid buffs for heavy investments and they took it out and give exclusivity to archons and bards, as well as one of them to druids for some reason.


    They do not want justicars to be a support type soul
    Last edited by Eughe; 05-08-2011 at 04:55 AM.

  14. #14
    Telaran
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    I like how the OP suggested keeping the classes on track with elemental affinities. Maybe that is the problem with RIFT. The souls have no clear direction.

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    Prophet of Telara Radak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eughe View Post
    If you are using interdict on trash mobs, you are wasting a gcd
    Explain to me how using a ability that is not on the gcd wastes a gcd?

    And as for out magic tanking problem I will stick to this option I suggested before:
    I think a 36root that scales with the amount of points spent would be a best option but a flat rate seems kind of dull. Maybe something like:
    Passive. Your DoV also causes you to take 5% less magic damage for 7.5 sec per conviction plus a additional 1% less magic damagen taken per point spent in the Justicar soul above 36.
    That would make it 20% total in a 51build plus the 18% we already have for 38% total which is still less then the other tanks but I can live with that. This also instantly solves the problem of the worthless DoV (a damage boost would still be welcome)
    Last edited by Radak; 05-08-2011 at 05:35 AM.

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