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Thread: A few things I've noticed about clerics-

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    Rift Disciple Alericofthered's Avatar
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    Default A few things I've noticed about clerics-

    Granted I'm not a hardcore player so there are things I could probably be missing, but here are some observations:

    1.Healing is not a popular job. In essence, it is a support class in that it makes people feel better about themselves either by surviving or dps. This is what kill/dps counters make important. What I've noticed is that people who opt for a full healing spec are not rewarded for their sacrifice (or penance). In pvp and wf's I notice they are continually out-healed by more congratulatory classes who do decent dps such as Chloro or Bard (T1-3) So why is it worth it? Spam aoe? Single target just has no real ummpf.

    2.DPS on some cleric specs is out of control. This is part of the issue. Who wants to heal when you can spec Inq/Cabal and spam bolt of judgement and out pace most rogues (T2-4).

    3.This is a question actually. Since Trion has opted to have a leaderboard dps/healing tracker, does Purifier shields count towards heals or is it another class that has to hear wf people say "I wish we had a healer" when you're spamming all you got?

    Please answer productively. I know these boards are filled with whine and venom. The point is: why heal or go full heal if there is little reward-
    Last edited by Alericofthered; 04-25-2011 at 11:40 AM.
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    Rift Disciple Minoris's Avatar
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    PvP and WF are one thing. PvE and raids or instances are another.

    "Real" healers, people used to healing and who love it know they'll get bashed at least as many time they'll get praised, probably more for the former, actually. We do it because we love it; because we know we helped or saved someone even if he himself doesn't; because there is no raid or instance without us; and because that one time the tank or someone in PvP looks at you and goes "awesome O! Thanks!"... it just fills your heart.

    tl;dr : I do it out of love
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    Rift Disciple Alericofthered's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minoris View Post
    PvP and WF are one thing. PvE and raids or instances are another.

    "Real" healers, people used to healing and who love it know they'll get bashed at least as many time they'll get praised, probably more for the former, actually. We do it because we love it; because we know we helped or saved someone even if he himself doesn't; because there is no raid or instance without us; and because that one time the tank or someone in PvP looks at you and goes "awesome O! Thanks!"... it just fills your heart.

    tl;dr : I do it out of love
    I know! Healing is definitely a niche though. I would say 90% of players don't get what you do out of healing- helping someone else. What other class has an appeal that someone would say "I just really like helping others?" I have shifted from full heals to dps and I hate it. I'll probably go back. But no other class takes the blame in a pvp loss like a healer nor gets the statistical love in pvp. It would be nice to see a healer (who sacrifices dps and tanking) get a bit of love from trion.

    PvE is an entirely different matter.
    Last edited by Alericofthered; 04-25-2011 at 12:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alericofthered View Post
    2.DPS on some cleric specs is out of control. This is part of the issue. Who wants to heal when you can spec Inq/Cabal and spam bolt of judgement and out pace most rogues (T2-4).
    If you actually believe this, you have never played cleric.
    While there ARE some cleric specs capable of good damage, spamming BoJ as a caster dps cleric spec will keep up with bard dps maybe, but certainly not any people specced to do real dps. Beyond aoe damage, their single target and burst damage is pretty pathetic and requires t2+raid gear to break 600's on a dummy (if that)
    Do the herpty derp, please, keep LOSing your healers behind objects so you die.

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    Telaran Enviro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alericofthered View Post
    Granted I'm not a hardcore player so there are things I could probably be missing, but here are some observations:

    1.Healing is not a popular job. In essence, it is a support class in that it makes people feel better about themselves either by surviving or dps. This is what kill/dps counters make important. What I've noticed is that people who opt for a full healing spec are not rewarded for their sacrifice (or penance). In pvp and wf's I notice they are continually out-healed by more congratulatory classes who do decent dps such as Chloro or Bard (T1-3) So why is it worth it? Spam aoe? Single target just has no real ummpf.

    2.DPS on some cleric specs is out of control. This is part of the issue. Who wants to heal when you can spec Inq/Cabal and spam bolt of judgement and out pace most rogues (T2-4).

    3.This is a question actually. Since Trion has opted to have a leaderboard dps/healing tracker, does Purifier shields count towards heals or is it another class that has to hear wf people say "I wish we had a healer" when you're spamming all you got?

    Please answer productively. I know these boards are filled with whine and venom. The point is: why heal or go full heal if there is little reward-
    1. Heals in pvp PUGs isn't popular because of how pvp works. A lot of time you get left behind in pugs. In PVE, it's different. BTW, I've never been out healed by an equally geared chloro/bard as far as I can tell. Even in lvl 50 pvp as a rank 1 guy without all the fancy armor I top heal charts. And yeah, healing is generally a thankless job, especially with people who have never really healed.

    2. What? I can get out dpsed by a lvl 50 mage in quest greens. LOL spam BoJ. Not making fun of ya, but go try doing that at lvl 50 in experts or pvp and see how far ya get. Trust me, we're on the craptastic side of DPSing.

    3. Shields aren't showing up on meters last I checked. Not sure about other stuff as I personally don't care about leaderboards and other stuff. I'm more of a "did we win or not" kind of guy. That said, I do use meters to figure out what's right or wrong with my build.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alericofthered View Post
    Granted I'm not a hardcore player so there are things I could probably be missing, but here are some observations:

    1.Healing is not a popular job. In essence, it is a support class in that it makes people feel better about themselves either by surviving or dps. This is what kill/dps counters make important. What I've noticed is that people who opt for a full healing spec are not rewarded for their sacrifice (or penance). In pvp and wf's I notice they are continually out-healed by more congratulatory classes who do decent dps such as Chloro or Bard (T1-3) So why is it worth it? Spam aoe? Single target just has no real ummpf.

    2.DPS on some cleric specs is out of control. This is part of the issue. Who wants to heal when you can spec Inq/Cabal and spam bolt of judgement and out pace most rogues (T2-4).

    3.This is a question actually. Since Trion has opted to have a leaderboard dps/healing tracker, does Purifier shields count towards heals or is it another class that has to hear wf people say "I wish we had a healer" when you're spamming all you got?

    Please answer productively. I know these boards are filled with whine and venom. The point is: why heal or go full heal if there is little reward-

    LOL he just said spam bolt of judgement, the worst spell a INQ has. And T2-T4? What T4? I love how noob players think they know so much.

    Noob is noob
    Last edited by Littlebomb; 04-25-2011 at 12:48 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alericofthered View Post

    2.DPS on some cleric specs is out of control. This is part of the issue. Who wants to heal when you can spec Inq/Cabal and spam bolt of judgement and out pace most rogues (T2-4).
    This one made me laugh. Please try this and report back to us how you did.

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    Rift Disciple Alericofthered's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Odinn View Post
    This one made me laugh. Please try this and report back to us how you did.
    I do apologize as this (2.) comment has become the sole purpose of the post: You are correct in your assumption that BoJ cannot out dps rogue in level 50 builds. I was misspoken. First I must qualify- T1 (Tier 1 WF's) In terms of BoJ out damaging I would say that it is WF 2-3 and not 50 nor T1-2 dungeons. I said this doesn't pertain to pve.

    Doesn't the omission of shield absorption counting as heals say something about the lack of attention these builds have gotten? It seems to me like these would be an easy fix, right?

    And please, be productive. Yes I was spoke incorrectly, but calling names just looks caddy.
    Last edited by Alericofthered; 04-25-2011 at 01:11 PM.
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    As for your WF comment... doing the most healing and doing the most effective healing are very different things. The people topping the healing charts are likely doing a lot of AOE heals. They have value, to be certain, but they certainly shouldn't be compared to what a good cleric will be doing.

    Meters lie. The numbers they produce are, of course, accurate (well.... usually they're reasonably accurate) but what they don't report (because some these things can't be calculated in a reasonable manner) can be far MORE valuable.
    A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner: Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time. When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment and replied, The one I feed the most.

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    Rift Disciple Minoris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soulfury View Post
    Meters lie. The numbers they produce are, of course, accurate (well.... usually they're reasonably accurate) but what they don't report (because some these things can't be calculated in a reasonable manner) can be far MORE valuable.
    Aye. A fine example would be those 3 or 4 poor bastards guarding the flag in Whitefall Steppes. Or the carrier of the flag waiting for the rest of the team to get their own flag back. They might not see the most actions, but without a carrier or guards...
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    Experienced and knowledgeable healers know that being at the top of a meter means nothing. (generally speaking, because there are certain times, specific situations- when position on a meter may tell a tale.)

    In Rift pvp-f you are top heals you probably provided mindless healing to a group and never saved a life, never had to really make split second decisions or think much about what you were doing. You probably didn't have to manage cool downs and didn't need to manage mana. ( or just didn't ) A real parser or meter tells you what the healer does and when and how. A knowledgable person reading the meter can decifer what makes a good healer, and big numbers at the end, is not it. Reaction, situational awarness , quick saves and instinctive actions are.

    We know we wont be rewarded for our actions and very few will ever really see what you contributed. Most healers are the type of people that don't need justification from others. Self confidence is usually a trait of a healer. We know how awesome we are and that is enough for us. =) A healer has to be a secure individual. Their own biggest fan.

    While it would be nice to have better rewards for healing, I continue to do so because its the most enjoyable way for me to play. It feels good to know I did a good job and I made a difference, I know when I've done an excellent job and that is reward enough.

    Don't go full heals unless you are the type of person who can handle all the responsibility and none of the glory.

    Now the few that do take notice, that do understand and compliment us are the ones we enjoy healing the most because it's nice to hear that the hard work and effort we put out was noticed, and because we never expect it.

    I use a puri/sent build. I mainly tank heal. I can group heal but not without working for it.
    I know it is I that is keeping the tank alive, regardless of how big chloro/bard numbers look. It is because the tank is alive that you and everyone else are alive, because you and everyone else are alive the target is dead. I don't care if my shields show up on the meter or not. I know what saved the day and usually the tank does too. I also love getting 4+K heals on my target when he's crit and scared, what's a bard gonna do about that?
    Play the flute and pray?

    I believe the favor/reward system will get a revamp for clerics contribution, its a new game with so many changes taking place all the time. Gotta have patience when you start a brand new MMO RPG- if it doesn't, I'll still heal because that is what I enjoy doing. If getting top favor/reward is what is fun to you- roll a pyro.

    If having fun on a video game isn't enough for a person then they got bigger problems to work out. Go in knowing what to expect and accept that what is, is.

    Cleric DPS is nothing to envy.
    I will leave it at that.
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    Rift Disciple Alericofthered's Avatar
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    While I agree with everyone that "playing a healer is not about being recognized" isn't that a bit besides the point. Shouldn't it have a bit more rewards that encourage more appeal? After reading the forums I've realized I'm not the only one that plays through levels 1-30 and realize NO ONE else plays a healing cleric...so I delete my toon and go make another. Over half of my slots are filled with cleric builds because so few want to do.

    What could make it more appealing? I know, I've asked this before... If the stats and meters don't matter- isn't that a bit defeatist in terms of pts earned for favor and renown?
    Last edited by Alericofthered; 04-26-2011 at 12:07 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alericofthered View Post
    2.DPS on some cleric specs is out of control. This is part of the issue. Who wants to heal when you can spec Inq/Cabal and spam bolt of judgement and out pace most rogues (T2-4).
    -
    ummm speaking as someone who is at the end of both pvp and dungeon items...

    I has someone test my damage. with full setup from my very well equiped inquisitor/cab my dps was 502. I look around here on the forums and most inquisitors are around the same.

    go over to the rogue forums. there are marksman who claim over 600 using nothing but insta cast on the move abilities ALONE....LOL.

    let alone the assassins who are over 1100 dps.

    so not only is your perception a little bit off, its off by MORE THAN DOUBLE.

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    I dont find healbot specs all that fun in pug WF. But I hate to lose so I play mine if needed. If I'm not playing this, I'm playing Justicar. I like the hit to heal mechanic better. As a dps, you feel like you're watching the fight rather than the bars. You feel more involved with the objective. Yes, I'll run off and burn down the flag carrier with waterjet if I have to.

    I dont know why you'd PvP as a cleric using a glass canon dps spec. That just doesn't make sense to me. One dps soul+ temp or just + one heal soul is probably optimal unless you're running healbot.

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    Telaran
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    Default Its not just healing in pvp

    I admit i am probably not the most knowledgeable about clerics, only dinged 50 about a week ago and barely been able to get any pvp done

    Anyway, i pvp heal with a warden/sentinel/templar build and i rather enjoy it, its not just about keeping your team mates alive dont neglect the utility you have, in my spec i have a ranged 3 sec silence, a spell reflect, an instant DoT, a DoT with a cast time, an instant direct damage spell, and immunity to snares/slows on myself for a few seconds a minute, and i have a short range knockback (which combined with the snare/slow immunity can really give some opponents a problem), and dont underestimate the ability to give an ally some mana.

    And one thing i have discovered about the rift UI (which i think is just plain genious tbh, gj trion), is that if you have a friendly player targeted, and they have a hostile target, then if you cast an offensive spell it will target your allies target automatically which makes some things in pvp a whole lot easier.

    On top of that i find more often than not we win in warfronts and i do tend to top the healing chart, admitadly not a great achievement as it also includes overhealing done.

    If you aren't enjoying healing in pvp perhaps you just aren't enjoying your build, or perhaps you would be happier if you had a friend or two to queue with you, or try another healing spec. If you still arent enjoying healing, then just dont do it.

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