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Thread: Pur/Sent - why do I see Healing Invocation over Ancestral Flame?

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    Shadowlander
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    Default Pur/Sent - why do I see Healing Invocation over Ancestral Flame?

    Hi all,

    Looking at Pur/Sent healing builds, I am curious as to why people are taking Healing Invocation in the Sentinel tree as their big heal over Ancestral Flame in the Purifier tree? Wouldn't a +60% (of your spell power) shield (ancestral flame) be more effective than +30% HoT (healing invocation).

    Seems to me the HoT would over-heal quite a bit while the shield would stay active until used up making it a better investment.

    Thanks
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    Rift Chaser Oblixt's Avatar
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    Cast 1 HI and while the HoT is ticking, cast 2x Ancestral Flame. Best of both worlds.
    Last edited by Oblixt; 04-21-2011 at 09:16 AM.

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    Shadowlander taxman972's Avatar
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    I don't know how many spell power you have but for me ancestral flame is just a joke (a bad joke)

    I'm lvl 50 rank 6 not raiding GS ans RoS.
    I have 729 spell power so I can shield for 437 in T1/T2 its just bad and in PvP its hilarious when you know some instant DoT can do 200 damage each second.

    Nemec - cleric Rank 6

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    Quote Originally Posted by solocleric View Post
    Hi all,

    Looking at Pur/Sent healing builds, I am curious as to why people are taking Healing Invocation in the Sentinel tree as their big heal over Ancestral Flame in the Purifier tree? Wouldn't a +60% (of your spell power) shield (ancestral flame) be more effective than +30% HoT (healing invocation).

    Seems to me the HoT would over-heal quite a bit while the shield would stay active until used up making it a better investment.

    Thanks
    I use both but if its a choice i cast HI first, its a bigger initial heal then the HoT is over 500 if it doesnt crit, the purifier heal is only slightly smaller but the shield attached to it is only 60% of your SP which for me with 950 SP is only 570 point shield which is less than half a hit in experts for a good geared tank, even less for crappy gear, another thing is <I think> if the purifier heal crits you still have the same amount of shield, but if HI crits (4k is my usual crit) the HoT goes up to 1200 points though I havent yet tested if the HoT is based on the base heal amount or the actual healed amount, pruri heal crits about 3500 or so

  5. #5
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    I can't speak for PvP but Ancestral Flame is far superior in PvE. The thing about HI is the HoT does nothing for a tank that is topped off, so a lot of the HoT will be wasted in a good group. Ancestral Flame, however, is *never* wasted. Over the course of an entire fight, RF spam will win out over HI spam every time.

    Some will argue that going deeper into Sentinel can tip the balance more in HI's favor due to the healing bonus, but the same can be said for Purifier increasing the strength of the shield which still is never wasted on a full health tank.

    In the end it comes down to play style, but for anyone interested in the numbers enough to run them... they will find RF always wins.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    I agree for the most part.

    I personally believe that Sentinel is more useful in the aspect that Serendipity makes your 3 second cast a 1.5 second cast, with the hot included, becomes more useful than a 3 second cast with a roughly 600 damage shield, provided you have 1k spell power (I only have about 850 in full T1).

    Also the base healing is higher on invocation. With maxed healing gear I can crit for roughly 6k (5.7k was my highest).

    I think its mainly how you want to heal, they would both be able to keep a tank up, but in all reality, 600 damage (which probably more like 450) is probably one white hit from a T1/2 mob, whereas you can get (provided its a 6k crit) a roughly 2k hot, and a regular 600-1000 hot when you don't. Also, you don't really get a hot in the Sentinel tree or Purifier and I would be all over that, personally, but thats more how you want to play.

    Hope that helps.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    Thanks for the responses.

    I guess I have always favored shields over HoTs so seeing as how there are advantages/disadvantages to both I think I'll stick with AF.

    Thanks
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    Telaran BaronXL's Avatar
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    The problem with HI is that if you are chain casting it (which you should be), you re-apply the HoT every 3 seconds. If you crit, you re-apply the HoT every 1.5 seconds.

    That is either 5 seconds or 6.5 seconds of the HoT that is wasted, every time.

    With RF, you use 100% of the shield every time it is cast. It's more optimal.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by akirhol View Post
    I can't speak for PvP but Ancestral Flame is far superior in PvE. The thing about HI is the HoT does nothing for a tank that is topped off, so a lot of the HoT will be wasted in a good group. Ancestral Flame, however, is *never* wasted. Over the course of an entire fight, RF spam will win out over HI spam every time.

    Some will argue that going deeper into Sentinel can tip the balance more in HI's favor due to the healing bonus, but the same can be said for Purifier increasing the strength of the shield which still is never wasted on a full health tank.

    In the end it comes down to play style, but for anyone interested in the numbers enough to run them... they will find RF always wins.
    Could be because I dont bring the big guns untill tank hits 50% or lower but my lasting invocation is rarely wasted, then again I dont do much PuG's so I know my tanks hp's and toughness really well so most fights I know exactly how long I have to heal him up at any given time so I know if using a msaller faster heal will suffice or if I need to be spamming the big ones.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BaronXL View Post
    The problem with HI is that if you are chain casting it (which you should be), you re-apply the HoT every 3 seconds. If you crit, you re-apply the HoT every 1.5 seconds.

    That is either 5 seconds or 6.5 seconds of the HoT that is wasted, every time.

    With RF, you use 100% of the shield every time it is cast. It's more optimal.
    I alternate HI and RF if I am in a situation where I need to be chain casting the big heals as well as reapplying the warden single target HoT and the puri ward as needed, nothing must is wasted that way

  11. #11
    Champion of Telara
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    restorative flame scales better with gear; unless you go 41+ into sentinel, RF receives a better bonus from spellpower then healing invocation.

    HI, higher base amount, less contribution from spellpower
    RF, lower base amount, more contribution from spellpower

    once you get around the 950-1000 spellpower mark is when you'll really notice RF's heal catch up (barring high sent specs) to HI's amount healed, and then you still have to account for the ancestral flame shield.
    Do the herpty derp, please, keep LOSing your healers behind objects so you die.

  12. #12
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    The biggest turning point that solidified my decision to stick with 34/32 using RF was an instance I ran with a guild group, I was parsing to check healing effectiveness... over the course of the entire dungeon, I healed 1.2m HP while the tank healed 1m HP according to the parser. That healing from the tank was actually my AF shield. I *absorbed* almost as much damage as I healed.

    Since overhealing wasn't counted, this is a pretty good illustration that AF boosted my effective healing by almost 100%. My HI/LI never came anywhere close to that level of effectiveness.This is the biggest thing people forget to account for... effectiveness of the shield vs the HOT when overhealing.

    Regarding speculation based entirely on personal observation, I have an easier time keeping tanks up using RF over HI. I believe this is due to *how much* of each effect is being utilized. For example:

    Same equipment, different 34/32 spec per heal, using rough numbers for easy math... numbers based on memory since I'm not at home.
    SP = 1000

    HI = 2400
    LI = 720 or 180/tick

    RF = 2000
    AF = 600

    Assuming a hit comes in that absorbs the shield between every cast, LI ticks every time, and you are chain casting either spell; non-crit EHP/s:

    HI = 860
    RF = 866.666_

    If anyone has better numbers for this, please do chime in. My point though is that the optimal effective healing between both specs is close enough that it is negligible. Where it matters, again, is overhealing... shields still work, LI ticks do not. If the tank gets hit once between casts and it's after the 2 seconds after casting HI, your LI did nothing for you while the shield was 100% efficient (assuming PvE experts).

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rukky View Post
    I agree for the most part.

    I personally believe that Sentinel is more useful in the aspect that Serendipity makes your 3 second cast a 1.5 second cast, with the hot included, becomes more useful than a 3 second cast with a roughly 600 damage shield, provided you have 1k spell power (I only have about 850 in full T1).

    Also the base healing is higher on invocation. With maxed healing gear I can crit for roughly 6k (5.7k was my highest).

    I think its mainly how you want to heal, they would both be able to keep a tank up, but in all reality, 600 damage (which probably more like 450) is probably one white hit from a T1/2 mob, whereas you can get (provided its a 6k crit) a roughly 2k hot, and a regular 600-1000 hot when you don't. Also, you don't really get a hot in the Sentinel tree or Purifier and I would be all over that, personally, but thats more how you want to play.

    Hope that helps.
    You don't really get a 2k hot though because on your next cast of HI you overwrite the hot. Say your next heal only heals for 1000. Now you're getting a 300 HoT and in reality even less because the hot takes 2 seconds for the first tick to fire and with serendipity (as you would have after a 6k crit) you're casting in 1.5 seconds, the hot never gets it's first 500 tick in.

    HI's value is in healing non tanks if they're taking more than just HB will cover. You get the base heal and then you'll get the full hot (or until they're full) topping them up further. RF with it's higher heal/sec (including the shield, and assuming good spellpower) works better on the MT, but because a good portion of the heal is based on short term damage prevention it's not as good of a choice to use on people taking occasional hits. There's also a lesser point investment to max RF out (though the flip side is a high investment has very low returns) where as HI functions at a minimal investment but doesn't really become the best heal until you're heavily invested in sentinel and give up potential purifier or warden points.

  14. #14
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    So I had a momentary lapse in sanity, disregard about 1m absorbed from my AF... it was actually about half of that IIRC, I forgot that I had looked and found that the rest of that absorption was from the rogue tank finisher that absorbs damage. Still ~40-50% of my EHPS was the shield though.

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    Plane Walker Lifeline's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taxman972 View Post
    I don't know how many spell power you have but for me ancestral flame is just a joke (a bad joke)

    I'm lvl 50 rank 6 not raiding GS ans RoS.
    I have 729 spell power so I can shield for 437 in T1/T2 its just bad and in PvP its hilarious when you know some instant DoT can do 200 damage each second.
    how the hell do you only have 729sp.. take off the shield or something. It's easy to have 1k+ sp on purifier, and in raid I have 1300-1500. Only thing for SP i wear from raid is wep.
    If you played FFXI then add me to your friend list.

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