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Thread: Really good comparison between the 3 tanks (war vs rogue vs cleric)

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Noctrin's Avatar
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    Default Really good comparison between the 3 tanks (war vs rogue vs cleric)

    I got it from here:

    http://forums.riftgame.com/showthrea...to-Other-Tanks

    Before you read, realize that I am a Warrior, I have around 75% Block raid buffed, and tank most of the fights. The ones I don't are due to the fact that Riftstalkers take absurdly less damage for the reasons I'm about to list (specifically on fights where there is a percentage based ability or just a highly damaging attack). Take away from this what you will, and while I do like the idea of different classes being better at certain things the difference is just far and away ridiculous.

    To begin, some personal stories from raiding with my guild. Our current Riftstalker tank (and GM) is an Assassin. That is, he prefers and would rather be playing Assassin. His gear is, for the most part, T2 gear, and his source core is far from good. Conversely, I've been awarded absurd amounts of gear (to elaborate, T3 chest, gloves, shoulders, pants off of Herald Gaurath, Shield off of Hylas, Sword off of Oracle). That said, there are some fights where a Riftstalker, in T2 gear (not even T2 epic gear mind you, he still has a blue or two), takes almost half as much damage from hard hitting abilities as I do, let alone our Justicar (I'll get to the Justicar plight momentarily). Some of these fights include Greenscale (breath hits me for around 3800/tick and is healable, but you'd be ******ed to not use a Riftstalker; breath hits them for 2.2-2.5k), Plutonus (his Thunder Clap hits for around 4.8k on me, around 3.5 on a Riftstalker; his Shocking Cipher hits me for around 8k, around 5k on a Riftstalker) who actually managed to literally one shot me half the time with around 12.5k damage occuring in the same second or within two seconds (Riftstalkers don't die in the same manner), and Herald Gaurath (breath hits me for 5k, hits Riftstalker for 2.2k; again, healable but why wouldn't you use a Riftstalker?)


    The reasons for this Disparity include (assuming Riftstalker/Bard/Ranger; http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0M...tIuqdRkkR.xb):

    *6% Damage Reduction from Ranger
    *6% Damage Reduction from Riftstalker
    *6% Damage Reduction from Phantom Blow
    *6% Healing from Riftstalker
    *35% Damage Reduction from Rift Guard (more on this later)
    *Scatter to the Shadows (three second immunity on a two minute cooldown)
    *Planar Refuge (30% damage reduction on a two minute cooldown)
    *Guardian Phase (mandatory and essentially irrelevant, brings Endurance and Armor up to tank levels)
    *The fact that Guardian Phase gives additional Resist for no apparent reason
    *10% Health from Bard
    *5% Health from Ranger
    *15% Endurance from Riftstalker
    *6% Endurance from Riftstalker

    Given these things, please understand I'm not asking for Riftstalkers to have their efficacy reduced, I'd simply like to have the two other Callings have comparable ability to reduce damage. To prove a point, I'll start with Cleric.

    Assuming Justicar/Shaman/Druid (http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=00...RsqeekRR.Mcb.x)
    *15% Damage Reduction from Justicar
    *3% Damage Reduction from Shaman
    *10% Healing from Shaman
    *Resplendent Embrace (50% healing increase on a two minute cooldown)
    *Just Defense (a moderate shield that absorbs about 2500 damage, not sure on the exactly value of this, on a two minute cooldown)
    *Stalwart Citadel (35% of Spell Power converted into Block)
    *Precept of Refuge (20% Block)
    *Devout Deflection (195% of Spell Power converted into Parry; Parry caps at 20%)
    *Mien of Leadership (mandatory and essentially irrelevant; brings Armor and Endurance up to tank levels)
    *5% Endurance from Druid

    As you can see, there are almost no flat percentage decreases. Clerics can Block, but with nowhere near the effectiveness a Warrior does. They can Parry, but that caps at 20%. With 18% Reduction they take the most damage from magic or other high damage abilities out of the three available tanking Callings. Their two minute cooldown (50% healing increase) is utter garbage. It doesn't serve any purpose when bosses like Plutonus are capable of dealing out over 12k damage in one second. Moving on to Warriors (better than Riftstalkers for most things that aren't high magic damage abilities or percentage based damage due to Block)


    Innate problem with any comparison is the fact that Warrior tanking specs are so variable, so I'll only be using the one I use for most bosses (I change specs more often than I care to elaborate). I do use a plethora different specs but due to Ravenous Defense/Void you'd be insane to not have Void Knight.

    Assuming Void Knight/Reaver/Paladin (http://rift.zam.com/en/stc.html?t=0c...cV0z.xf0VI0V):

    *5% Damage Reduction from Reaver
    *5% Damage Reduction from Catalyze (Assuming target has mana, most do not)
    *9% Spell Damage Reduction from Paladin
    *20% Spell Damage Reduction from Void Knight
    *Additional 20% reduction when a Block occurs from Paladin (note: magic cannot be blocked unless Impassable Guard is used, and then only applies said 20%)
    *50% Strength from Void Knight (assuming pacts are incoming rapidly)
    *50% Armor from Void Knight (puts me up to like 16k armor, lol)
    *Aggressive Block (10% Block)
    *Touch of Life (Full heal on a ten minute cooldown)


    Now, if you note, the first four things I listed for Warriors come to a total of 39% Spell Damage reduction if the boss has mana, 34% if it doesn't. Rift Guard ALONE is 35% Damage Reduction (not Spell Damage, everything), and reduces percentage based abilities as well (Plutonus). Clerics are in the worst situation of all, in that their cooldowns are awful, they have little reduction, Parry caps at 20%, and they can't reach high levels of Block like Warriors can. Now in order to actually have some of the mandatory things from Void Knight I can't pick up things like Impassable Guard from Paladin (all attacks are blocked for 10 seconds), which is the only comparable thing to Rift Guard, except it's on a two minute cooldown. Possible solutions to the absurd disparity between the three would possibly be to make it so magic is blockable, or just remove percentage based abilities from the game and look at the tanking Souls and revise them a great deal. I also left Armor out of this assuming that most are going to be at similar values. That said, let the debate begin.
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  2. #2
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    Rogues are terrible tanks til they get geared. So for progression your always going to want a warrior tank. Plate has a lot more armor than chain which has a lot more armor than leather. The whole % arguement without considering the different armor in physical damage fights is rediculous. I don't like where rogue tanking is right now. I mean if you need T1 gear to do T1 dungeons, what is the point?
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    First off, i'd like to say that i love the way the guy who wrote that block of text types (with lots of parenthesis usage) because i do the same thing (the aforementioned parenthesis usage)!

    I also agree with him for the most part. Cleric tanking is a distant 3rd. And by "3rd" i mean "really 6th, because there are 4 warrior tanking souls." But that doesn't bother me so much as being so far behind the other callings in tanking. It would be nice if they would bring the mitigation up a bit and maybe make it a lot less boring. I'd like to hit other buttons instead of straight EJ spam lol. Also, he's right. The CDs are crap. Not only are they crap, they're unimaginative. It would be cooler if they were more... Justicar-y.

    It would also be nice if "more Justicar-y" meant more than just "i get a direct heal when i hit something." How about "i get a HoT or a shield when i hit something?!" Or maybe "i give a useful raid buff when i hit something..."

    Something more interesting would be nice. S'all i'm sayin'.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnie328 View Post
    I also agree with him for the most part. Cleric tanking is a distant 3rd. And by "3rd" i mean "really 6th, because there are 4 warrior tanking souls." But that doesn't bother me so much as being so far behind the other callings in tanking. It would be nice if they would bring the mitigation up a bit and maybe make it a lot less boring. I'd like to hit other buttons instead of straight EJ spam lol. Also, he's right. The CDs are crap. Not only are they crap, they're unimaginative. It would be cooler if they were more... Justicar-y.

    It would also be nice if "more Justicar-y" meant more than just "i get a direct heal when i hit something." How about "i get a HoT or a shield when i hit something?!" Or maybe "i give a useful raid buff when i hit something..."

    Something more interesting would be nice. S'all i'm sayin'.
    If you are only hitting Even Justice you're doing it wrong, only the 44 pt cooldown is crap, and I would say a +x% magic damage taken debuff on my target is a useful raid buff. Also, there are essences out there to give you shields or HoTs when you hit something.

    The only legitimate gripes I can see for Justicars at the moment are the god-awful state of our anti-magic capability, blasting past the parry cap so we don't scale nearly as well as other tanking souls, and needing 4 GCDs minimum after res to be able to get back to tanking with any effectiveness. Make miens a stance that persists through death and cavalier an always on passive like the melee stat conversion, split devout deflection into some dodge and less parry, and fix the anti-magic liabilities to be closer to rogues/warriors (not necessarily equivalent, but much closer) and we'd be set. Although a damage increase would be nice I can see arguments against it.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lege View Post
    Rogues are terrible tanks til they get geared. So for progression your always going to want a warrior tank. Plate has a lot more armor than chain which has a lot more armor than leather. The whole % arguement without considering the different armor in physical damage fights is rediculous. I don't like where rogue tanking is right now. I mean if you need T1 gear to do T1 dungeons, what is the point?
    You're wrong on basically everything. Rogues require less gear to perform better on basically every fight where tank damage is important(greenscale, herald, plutonus, alsbeth). Armor isn't the only factor when comparing physical mitigation, and is largely irrelevant when most of the damage comes from magic melee attacks anyway. For progression currently you'd always want a rogue tank, even though you can use a warrior fine. Using a justicar is always the worst possible choice.

  6. #6
    Rift Chaser DrakeFS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
    You're wrong on basically everything. Rogues require less gear to perform better on basically every fight where tank damage is important(greenscale, herald, plutonus, alsbeth). Armor isn't the only factor when comparing physical mitigation, and is largely irrelevant when most of the damage comes from magic melee attacks anyway. For progression currently you'd always want a rogue tank, even though you can use a warrior fine. Using a justicar is always the worst possible choice.
    At the raid level, yes you are right. Anything before a raid, T1's and sometimes T2's rogues are in a horrible state. Rogues scale extremely well with their gear post T1, to the point that they become the #1 mitigation tank (from the worst).

    Justicars currently need some form of magic reduction around 30% to be viable for Greenscale and a lot of RoS. As a previous poster on these forums said, "I was fine with tanking 4/5 GSB" and so was I. RoS changed that though, with everything being heavily magic based. Currently I am looking into a death resist set to try and see if that allows justifiable tanking by a Justicar in RoS. Even if it does, that would still be a kick to the groin. Having to put together another equipment set(s, after all we would need 6 resist sets...) for the same soul combo seems a bit ridiculous.
    A Justicar's path is not one of ease. But, hey, we do get to hit stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeFS View Post
    At the raid level, yes you are right. Anything before a raid, T1's and sometimes T2's rogues are in a horrible state. Rogues scale extremely well with their gear post T1, to the point that they become the #1 mitigation tank (from the worst).

    Justicars currently need some form of magic reduction around 30% to be viable for Greenscale and a lot of RoS. As a previous poster on these forums said, "I was fine with tanking 4/5 GSB" and so was I. RoS changed that though, with everything being heavily magic based. Currently I am looking into a death resist set to try and see if that allows justifiable tanking by a Justicar in RoS. Even if it does, that would still be a kick to the groin. Having to put together another equipment set(s, after all we would need 6 resist sets...) for the same soul combo seems a bit ridiculous.
    +1. Stacking resistances being a necessity to tank as Justicar is a bit ridiculous, yes.

    Justicars in experts are fine, that's not even up for debate. Sure we may have to work a bit harder (not as many easy mode aggro tools as a certain other calling) but we are perfectly fine.

    The problem are those minor things we lack (parry cap, no magic mitigation), which when you enter the raid segment becomes not so minor.
    Last edited by hateful; 04-20-2011 at 05:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeFS View Post
    At the raid level, yes you are right. Anything before a raid, T1's and sometimes T2's rogues are in a horrible state. Rogues scale extremely well with their gear post T1, to the point that they become the #1 mitigation tank (from the worst).

    Justicars currently need some form of magic reduction around 30% to be viable for Greenscale and a lot of RoS. As a previous poster on these forums said, "I was fine with tanking 4/5 GSB" and so was I. RoS changed that though, with everything being heavily magic based. Currently I am looking into a death resist set to try and see if that allows justifiable tanking by a Justicar in RoS. Even if it does, that would still be a kick to the groin. Having to put together another equipment set(s, after all we would need 6 resist sets...) for the same soul combo seems a bit ridiculous.

    Uhm, Riftstalker tanking is probably the.. least gear dependant of all tanking types? more armor helps, but low base armor means their buffs won't fluctuate much even with 200 more armor or so; They aren't avoidance tanks (despite common belief, that is what justicars are supposed to be), if they go blade dancer they net ~10% more dodge from a talent and false blade (yet another buff); So all they really gain from equipment is.. more end; toughness aside.

    Last post in that thread I broke it down 53% of their physical resist (and magic resist)(47% without ranger) comes from buffs and talents -- not gear, they get more hp from gear, but that's about it.

    Riftstalker tanking is very skill intensive (Pull is very important, and buff maintenance is SUPER key (as in, they have less armor than a cleric and no block without their buffs up (Rift guard replaces the shield, effectively)

    So it's not that they're gear gated, it's that they're skill-gated, and people don't know how to play them without practice -- which they get by faceplanting all over t1/t2's

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubin View Post
    Uhm, Riftstalker tanking is probably the.. least gear dependant of all tanking types? more armor helps, but low base armor means their buffs won't fluctuate much even with 200 more armor or so; They aren't avoidance tanks (despite common belief, that is what justicars are supposed to be), if they go blade dancer they net ~10% more dodge from a talent and false blade (yet another buff); So all they really gain from equipment is.. more end; toughness aside.

    Last post in that thread I broke it down 53% of their physical resist (and magic resist)(47% without ranger) comes from buffs and talents -- not gear, they get more hp from gear, but that's about it.

    Riftstalker tanking is very skill intensive (Pull is very important, and buff maintenance is SUPER key (as in, they have less armor than a cleric and no block without their buffs up (Rift guard replaces the shield, effectively)

    So it's not that they're gear gated, it's that they're skill-gated, and people don't know how to play them without practice -- which they get by faceplanting all over t1/t2's
    You miss a key point. Namely that their mitigation is based on their endurance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bri bates View Post
    The only legitimate gripes I can see for Justicars at the moment are [snip] and needing 4 GCDs minimum after res to be able to get back to tanking with any effectiveness.
    YES.

    This bothers me so much. If I die, and someone throws me a battle rez, I sometimes just end up waiting until everyone dies and then take the rez - just so I can switch specs and rez the party again - because of the amount of time it takes to get back to tanking status as a Justicar. Very unfortunate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucasa View Post
    You miss a key point. Namely that their mitigation is based on their endurance.
    .. they have more physical and magical mitigation at ~6.5k armor (which is easily achievable in late 50 and early t1 gear.) than my t2/raid rift geared warrior even after you fit block in. How is that based on endurance?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubin View Post
    .. they have more physical and magical mitigation at ~6.5k armor (which is easily achievable in late 50 and early t1 gear.) than my t2/raid rift geared warrior even after you fit block in. How is that based on endurance?
    See? You're discussing class mechanics you don't even understand.

    Ps: Damage reduction isnt additive.
    Last edited by Lucasa; 04-20-2011 at 07:14 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucasa View Post
    See? You're discussing class mechanics you don't even understand.
    .. and you are making vague nonsensical comments and throwing insults without basis, your point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kyuubin View Post
    .. they have more physical and magical mitigation at ~6.5k armor (which is easily achievable in late 50 and early t1 gear.) than my t2/raid rift geared warrior even after you fit block in. How is that based on endurance?
    from what i recall on top of my head, their barrier (the most important buff they have and what actually makes them tanks) absorbs hp of a certain % but the max blocked scales through their endurance.

    Since they usually refresh it long before it 'bursts' it doesn't really much afaik.

    the only slight porblem that rs have in comparison to other tanks is a bit more 'random' aoe aggro, they are topping nearly every other category though.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by shroudb View Post
    from what i recall on top of my head, their barrier (the most important buff they have and what actually makes them tanks) absorbs hp of a certain % but the max blocked scales through their endurance.

    Since they usually refresh it long before it 'bursts' it doesn't really much afaik.

    the only slight porblem that rs have in comparison to other tanks is a bit more 'random' aoe aggro, they are topping nearly every other category though.
    it is, guild leader in mostly t1 gear hits 16910 -- which works out to be ~48000 damage (more, as that's assuming 0% mitigation outside of rift guard) over 30 seconds, and if you are taking that much damage, you've got bigger issues than a little resistance (plus you can just refresh it early)
    Last edited by Kyuubin; 04-20-2011 at 08:12 AM.

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