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Thread: An indepth look at Cleric Healing (Raid Environment)

  1. #91
    Plane Touched Remedyz's Avatar
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    Need to get this sticky'd!
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  2. #92
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    Good post, yet no data to back anything up.

    I think any of the healing builds work fine, and it all depends on what you know and how you play it. Personally I am not a fan of the Sentinel build, and I have healed in Experts fine with a full Warden Spec. And it has ridiculous burst damage if you want to. As long as you are not in that "oh crap" moment every 30 seconds, you are fine.

    I also don't understand why you think not going 51 points in a raid helps. If you have a bunch of healers, having them specialized in what they do is going to provide more healing overall. Especially the Warden spec with the +60% boost to HoT's, that is big. Sacrificing 3% per point you don't put into that line for 1% bonus to something else doesn't seem to add up to me.

    I am trying to compile some data on all this, but it is slow going. So much to look at and I am too busy playing most of the time ;) Anyways, if people are not dying, it doesn't really matter what your spec is. I could just never get into the Sentinel build, it doesn't feel very powerful with the groups I am with. It honestly really depends on your tank ... and now a days, I am tanking usually ;)
    Last edited by Vidrak; 03-28-2011 at 11:42 AM.

  3. #93
    Shield of Telara VeroProDiGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vidrak View Post
    Good post, yet no data to back anything up.

    I think any of the healing builds work fine, and it all depends on what you know and how you play it. Personally I am not a fan of the Sentinel build, and I have healed in Experts fine with a full Warden Spec. And it has ridiculous burst damage if you want to. As long as you are not in that "oh crap" moment every 30 seconds, you are fine.

    I also don't understand why you think not going 51 points in a raid helps. If you have a bunch of healers, having them specialized in what they do is going to provide more healing overall. Especially the Warden spec with the +60% boost to HoT's, that is big. Sacrificing 3% per point you don't put into that line for 1% bonus to something else doesn't seem to add up to me.

    I am trying to compile some data on all this, but it is slow going. So much to look at and I am too busy playing most of the time ;) Anyways, if people are not dying, it doesn't really matter what your spec is. I could just never get into the Sentinel build, it doesn't feel very powerful with the groups I am with. It honestly really depends on your tank ... and now a days, I am tanking usually ;)
    51 points bring no cooldowns and no battle rezs.

    When you do the high end raiding bosses in GSB you will see the necessity of both battle rezs and efficient cool downs. It has nothing to do with point for point spell power co efficients and etc

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  4. #94
    Shield of Telara VeroProDiGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remedyz View Post
    Need to get this sticky'd!
    Trying to get it done

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  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeroProDiGY View Post
    51 points bring no cooldowns and no battle rezs.

    When you do the high end raiding bosses in GSB you will see the necessity of both battle rezs and efficient cool downs. It has nothing to do with point for point spell power co efficients and etc
    Would be interesting to see how 51 Warden shakes out in GSB after the fix to Cholo/Bard raid healing.

  6. #96
    Telaran Joena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeroProDiGY View Post
    51 points bring no cooldowns and no battle rezs.

    When you do the high end raiding bosses in GSB you will see the necessity of both battle rezs and efficient cool downs. It has nothing to do with point for point spell power co efficients and etc
    This argument is fine with 51 Warden, but 51 Purifier or 51 Sentinel actually provides more cooldowns than the specs you use. Especially if you go Sent since Vigilance is hands down the best healer cooldown in the game and you don't lose battle rez at all.

    If you have 2 healers and one goes 51 Warden and one goes 51 Purifier or Sent you will end up with the same number(or more) of cooldowns as 2 people running your spec but better raid healing overall. This especially holds true with the Healer's Covenant since having 2 healers with it doesn't even help unless it's a multi-tank fight.

    There may be another argument against having Healers specced 51 points in your raid but cooldowns is not a viable one.
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  7. #97
    Shadowlander Toranaga's Avatar
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    There are so many things that can go wrong in a boss fight, that having few cooldowns in your sleeve is a must. In my humble experience, its simply more reliable than having 2 people with 51 point healing trees and hoping that everything will go as planned, especially on new PvE content.

  8. #98
    Telaran Joena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toranaga View Post
    There are so many things that can go wrong in a boss fight, that having few cooldowns in your sleeve is a must. In my humble experience, its simply more reliable than having 2 people with 51 point healing trees and hoping that everything will go as planned, especially on new PvE content.
    What you are saying doesn't make sense unless you are having 2 people spec 51 Warden which obviously would be a bad choice. You don't lose cooldowns by going 51 Puri/Sent, you gain them.
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  9. #99
    Shield of Telara HighFive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mridc View Post
    To bring a bit of madness into the wonderful world of stats:

    1 WIS = 0,75 spell power and 0,33 Mana/10 seconds
    1 INT = 0,25 spell power, 1 crit rating, 10 mana
    1 crit rating is roughly 0,04% added chance to crit.

    At T1+ levels of spell power, crit rating actually is better for throughput than spell power, mathematically speaking. This is even more the case if specced into Serendipity, at which point crit rating is IMO vastly superior to spell power (speaking of secondary stats).

    Primary stats in terms of staying power:
    10 INT grant 100 mana, or one additonal HI or RF
    10 WIS grant 3,3 mana per 10 seconds, or one additional HI/RF after 5 minutes
    Shorter fights favour INT, longer fights Wisdom. Since we're talking about raiding, Wisdom wins in terms of staying power.

    Primary stats in terms of throughput:
    10 INT grant 2,5 spell power and 0,38% crit chance.
    10 Wisdom grant 7,5 spell power.
    So it's 5 spell power vs 0,38% to crit per 10 of each stat.

    So, simple napkin math:
    5 spell power will roughly add between 2 and 6 points of healing to each spell (taking Healing Grace/Healing Communion and Healing Invocation/Restorative Flame as a basis). So 5 spell power are a RNG independant linear increase to throughput. Assuming HI/RF spam, 5 spell power will increase the Cleric's throughput by roughly 0,32%, including Lasting Invocation/Ancestral Flame.
    Conversely, 0,38% to crit chance will (given that the RNG evens out over time) result in a 0,38% increased chance to get 170% healing from a spell, resulting in a roughly 0,65% throughput increase.
    This does not include Serendipty though, which will increase throughput potential even more.

    I will not rule out the possibility that I've done something completely wrong with these calculations. If so, please point out the mistakes. But it does seem as if INT is more desirable than WIS, even more so if specced into Serendipity (in which case one crit will directly increase one spell's throughput to 170% and the next one's to 200% in terms of healing/time).

    So basically, wouldn't stat priorities rather be:
    INT >= WIS > Crit Rating > Spell Power?
    This was much more useful than the original post.

    I appreciate that the the original poster put a lot of time into their blog, but it wasn't very helpful and it seems like there are some wasted points in both builds.

    For example, why take Ancestral Flame and Healing Invocation? How many 3 second heals do you need? Also, why put one point in Protect the Flock for a single target healing build?

    As for the aoe build, 1/5 in Light Efficiency, 1/5 Diona's Gift and 0/0 in Embolden?

    I think the advice is questionable at best.
    Sticky some #$%#^$# guides so that people stop asking the same question for the 100th time or posting information that is clearly wrong.
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  10. #100
    Telaran Joena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFive View Post
    This was much more useful than the original post.

    I appreciate that the the original poster put a lot of time into their blog, but it wasn't very helpful and it seems like there are some wasted points in both builds.

    For example, why take Ancestral Flame and Healing Invocation? How many 3 second heals do you need? Also, why put one point in Protect the Flock for a single target healing build?

    As for the aoe build, 1/5 in Light Efficiency, 1/5 Diona's Gift and 0/0 in Embolden?

    I think the advice is questionable at best.
    I would agree with you in every way except that the poster you quoted was incorrect. As was already pointed out his calculations weren't correct and SP provides more throughput than Crit.

    The thought process was flawed even if the calculations had been correct. Different heals have different SP Coefficients so you would need to figure every spell out individually to verify it didn't have a threshold of SP where one became better or worse.

    He also didn't take into account talents that modify SP/Wis. In most healing builds 1 Wis actually equals .827 SP not .75.

    SP>Wis>Int>Crit Rating (The last 2 are debatable depending on build although its not often relevant to choose between the 2)
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  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joena View Post
    I would agree with you in every way except that the poster you quoted was incorrect. As was already pointed out his calculations weren't correct and SP provides more throughput than Crit.

    The thought process was flawed even if the calculations had been correct. Different heals have different SP Coefficients so you would need to figure every spell out individually to verify it didn't have a threshold of SP where one became better or worse.

    He also didn't take into account talents that modify SP/Wis. In most healing builds 1 Wis actually equals .827 SP not .75.

    SP>Wis>Int>Crit Rating (The last 2 are debatable depending on build although its not often relevant to choose between the 2)
    Yes and no. You also didn't take into account that there's a few talents that proc off crits. If you have Serendipity and/or Overflow, int/crit suddenly becomes a quantum leap more valuable in comparison to without having those talents, as I showed in my calculation on page 9 of this thread. Also wisdom scales linear while int scales depending on the base amount. This means that the more spellpower you have to start with, the more valuable crit becomes. It also adds more mana to your mana pool, which is more useful than mana regen for any fight less than 5 mins aprox.

    I play sent/warden myself with both serendipity and overflow and for me it would be far more useful to have 900 spellpower and 100 int, which gives 1k bigger mana pool and extra crit, then having ~955 sp and 100 wisdom, which only gives mana regen.

    Personally I think your advice is good as a simple answer, one that you can't really go wrong with and will always lead to decent results.

    A more complicated answer would be to look at your talents. If you don't have serendipity and/or overflow, then wis/sp will always be better. If you do have one, try to get your spellpower to a good level first, say 950+, after that you can start valueing int/crit as at least equal. If you have both, start at 850+ and after that int/crit will probably be better.

  12. #102
    Telaran Joena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrodarcniss View Post
    Yes and no. You also didn't take into account that there's a few talents that proc off crits. If you have Serendipity and/or Overflow, int/crit suddenly becomes a quantum leap more valuable in comparison to without having those talents, as I showed in my calculation on page 9 of this thread. Also wisdom scales linear while int scales depending on the base amount. This means that the more spellpower you have to start with, the more valuable crit becomes. It also adds more mana to your mana pool, which is more useful than mana regen for any fight less than 5 mins aprox.

    I play sent/warden myself with both serendipity and overflow and for me it would be far more useful to have 900 spellpower and 100 int, which gives 1k bigger mana pool and extra crit, then having ~955 sp and 100 wisdom, which only gives mana regen.

    Personally I think your advice is good as a simple answer, one that you can't really go wrong with and will always lead to decent results.

    A more complicated answer would be to look at your talents. If you don't have serendipity and/or overflow, then wis/sp will always be better. If you do have one, try to get your spellpower to a good level first, say 950+, after that you can start valueing int/crit as at least equal. If you have both, start at 850+ and after that int/crit will probably be better.
    Actually Overflow scales with both Crit and Wisdom and Crit only barely wins out with this talent. It gives you about 3.5% more healing from Overflow than the equivalent amount of Wis which doesn't make up for the approximate loss of 50% throughput from the example of SP/Wis/Int stats you gave. 3.8% crit from the 100 Int is about 50% of the throughput gain you get from 55 SP.

    Serendipity is a different beast and yes it does help out a ton to push Crit farther along. More variables would have to be known about a build though to test how much and if it actually can surpass Wis/SP.
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  13. #103
    Telaran Joena's Avatar
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    So I did some tests with my own gear and spec just to see the numbers.

    I had under 36 points in Sent as per the OPs specs so his HI should heal for the same amount as mine. I took the first 30 non-crits with each amount of Spellpower and averaged them since there is some variance.

    895 SP = 1929 HI
    950 SP = 2008 HI

    This is actually 1.44 less SP than you get out of 100 Wis vs 100 Int but it won't matter much.

    Assume a base of 10% Crit and then assume 13.8% crit for the 895 SP set up to show trading 3.8% crit for 55 SP. Also assuming the law of averages equals out perfectly at 1000 casts. Spamming nothing but HI.

    1000 casts of HI at 895 SP and 13.8% crit will give you 2,248,442 damage healed
    1000 casts of HI at 950 SP and 10% crit will give you 2,248,960 damage healed

    So IF you have Serendipity you will still see a .02% increase in throughput from running 100 wis over 100 Int. IF you have both Overflow and Serendipity Int will just barely pull ahead but that would be the only spec where that was the case and it's by a very small margin. There is no spec where Int will ever beat out pure SP.

    SO:
    SP>Wis>Int>Crit
    SP>Int=Wis>Crit w/ Serendipity
    SP>Int>Wis>Crit w/ Serendipity AND Overflow
    Joena - Sunrest - Den of Madness

  14. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joena View Post
    SO:
    SP>Wis>Int>Crit
    SP>Int=Wis>Crit w/ Serendipity
    SP>Int>Wis>Crit w/ Serendipity AND Overflow
    Very nice numbers Joena!

    This order seems to be correct as far as my experiences go. I'd like to add one thing to it. Overflow actually seems to scale differently depending on your base stats as well. If you have high wisdom and low crit, crit does more for it and if you have high crit and low wisdom, wisdom does more for it.

    So even if you are specced with serendipity and overflow, it's certainly not a good idea to sacrifice wisdom to get more int. Balancing the two is best.

  15. #105
    Shield of Telara VeroProDiGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HighFive View Post
    This was much more useful than the original post.

    I appreciate that the the original poster put a lot of time into their blog, but it wasn't very helpful and it seems like there are some wasted points in both builds.

    For example, why take Ancestral Flame and Healing Invocation? How many 3 second heals do you need? Also, why put one point in Protect the Flock for a single target healing build?

    As for the aoe build, 1/5 in Light Efficiency, 1/5 Diona's Gift and 0/0 in Embolden?

    I think the advice is questionable at best.
    Why would you not take both of those talents? Before you go out on a limb to call someone basically wrong why don't you look at the talents and the numbers?

    You can weave in both Restorative Flame And Healing Invocation to flow together and Blanket and HoT each other. They also both scale with serendipity so they aren't all (3 sec Casts) The other reason to spec into Intense Flames is so Healing Flame can be spammed for maximum efficiency and maximum proc rates.

    Last I checked, Divine Favor and Healing Communion both are AoE Heals that proc Protect the Flock and these should both be saved for oh **** moments essential why 5 % mitigation is good to have.

    As far as the AoE Build why wouldn't you take 1/5 in Light Efficiency. To put 5 in here you would have to take our either

    4% spell power
    16% Increased on Crits
    4% on ALL Healing
    8% Mana cost on all Heals

    Must I go on??

    Before blindly shooting down idea's why don't you read other the other posts and understand the concept of min/maxing.

    And If I seem angry in this post it's because I am a bit due to the lack of thought put behind some of your guys/girls post NOT to mention half of these points have already been answered.

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