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Thread: An indepth look at Cleric Healing (Raid Environment)

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeroProDiGY View Post
    I mean it's still worth it because of its low mana cost,close to equal healing with 6 stacks and so you don't overlap your HoT with HI. Waste of mana and the HoT.

    But I guess it's personal preference.
    I was unaware that untalented Deluge was hitting for that high.

  2. #77
    Shield of Telara VeroProDiGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanis View Post
    Very similar to the build I run with, though a few constructive criticisms:

    1- You should be able to find a point somewhere (I go 1/2 Restorative Tide) to get Healing Invocation to pair with ToTL if something unfortunate happens and either Deluge is on CD or your SS stack drops.

    2- Using Showers and Flood after Ripple is ineffective, as they are not single-target heals and don't spread via Ripple.

    3- The rotation appears to be greatly set up to not have your SS stack fall off, casting that pretty often (likely 1/2 way through the timer). It also might run into trouble on hard hitting mobs. When I run into a boss/situation where I know the tank is going to be taking a ton of damage I basically just:

    SSx4 at start
    Spray as we run to position
    Deluge
    HI
    Deluge
    SS
    Deluge
    Spray
    etc...

    Basically just Deluge and fit whatever single hot you need while Deluge is on CD.
    I was under the impression they do work with Ripple and it is putting the individual hot from HF and HS onto other people. I know it did work like this unless they fixed the bug.

    Also I see what you mean by the HI thing but I just don't know about speccing into it untalented and with a 3 second cast that is really a recipe for your SS to fall off. This spec in general is focus more on raid healing with decent tank healing. So it's something I am not too worried about but I do see your concern. This is more of a fight specific spec but I do encourage the thoughts and changing them up a bit.

    If that's what works for you feel free to do it. I have healed with it today in a few t2s and have had no problems on any boss so I am comfortable and in a raid it won't be my primary duty.

    But thanks for the thoughts and breaking down of it for others

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  3. #78
    Shield of Telara VeroProDiGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alanis View Post
    I was unaware that untalented Deluge was hitting for that high.
    I want to say a HI will heal for about 1900 - 2100 non crit.

    With 6 stacks Deluge will hit for about 840 -900 and the additional healing for about 600 - 750. Not to mention hots will tick at the exact same time it heals. (This is raid buffed of course)

    The numbers are a tiny bit slacking on a deluge but it is 1 second less and about 35 mana less
    Last edited by VeroProDiGY; 03-27-2011 at 05:06 AM.

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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mridc View Post
    To bring a bit of madness into the wonderful world of stats:

    1 WIS = 0,75 spell power and 0,33 Mana/10 seconds
    1 INT = 0,25 spell power, 1 crit rating, 10 mana
    1 crit rating is roughly 0,04% added chance to crit.

    At T1+ levels of spell power, crit rating actually is better for throughput than spell power, mathematically speaking. This is even more the case if specced into Serendipity, at which point crit rating is IMO vastly superior to spell power (speaking of secondary stats).

    Primary stats in terms of staying power:
    10 INT grant 100 mana, or one additonal HI or RF
    10 WIS grant 3,3 mana per 10 seconds, or one additional HI/RF after 5 minutes
    Shorter fights favour INT, longer fights Wisdom. Since we're talking about raiding, Wisdom wins in terms of staying power.

    Primary stats in terms of throughput:
    10 INT grant 2,5 spell power and 0,38% crit chance.
    10 Wisdom grant 7,5 spell power.
    So it's 5 spell power vs 0,38% to crit per 10 of each stat.

    So, simple napkin math:
    5 spell power will roughly add between 2 and 6 points of healing to each spell (taking Healing Grace/Healing Communion and Healing Invocation/Restorative Flame as a basis). So 5 spell power are a RNG independant linear increase to throughput. Assuming HI/RF spam, 5 spell power will increase the Cleric's throughput by roughly 0,32%, including Lasting Invocation/Ancestral Flame.
    Conversely, 0,38% to crit chance will (given that the RNG evens out over time) result in a 0,38% increased chance to get 170% healing from a spell, resulting in a roughly 0,65% throughput increase.
    This does not include Serendipty though, which will increase throughput potential even more.

    I will not rule out the possibility that I've done something completely wrong with these calculations. If so, please point out the mistakes. But it does seem as if INT is more desirable than WIS, even more so if specced into Serendipity (in which case one crit will directly increase one spell's throughput to 170% and the next one's to 200% in terms of healing/time).

    So basically, wouldn't stat priorities rather be:
    INT >= WIS > Crit Rating > Spell Power?
    I didnt read every single page so if this has already been adressed just ignore this post.

    You did in fact make a pretty huge mistake there when calculating the throughput increase of crit:
    When a spell crits it heals for 170% which is true, however it would've hit for 100% anyway hence giving you a 70% increase in healoutoput. The correct calculation should look more like this:

    (170%-100%)x0.38%=0.27% increase in throughput making Int so much worse than Wis in almost every way.

  5. #80
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    Great thread, I actually use an almost identical Purifier/Sentinel build pretty much always, although my change is that I have 2 points in Warden. Healing Current only costs 21 mana so whenever I'm not doing anything else I'm just spamming that spell since my mana regen is actually faster than the casting time of that. It's the most mana efficient spell and it has the added bonus of the hot attached so throughout an encounter you always have that and Healing Spray on the tank.

    I also just created the Sentinel/Warden build as my other healer spec a while ago. I think you're exactly right with the synergies.

    Nice post.

  6. #81
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    I wanted to just say great guide! I am a very strong purifier/sent builduser [basically the same as yours slightly shifted points] and have directed some of the people in my guild to this guide since they seem to disagree that a purifier/sentinel build works [they are super sentinel/warden fans].

    Really love that post a few above about the situational use of HI vs RF. I usually alternate the use of HI and RF in in T1/T2/Expert Rifts and will keep those mechanics in mind when I step into Greenscales raid instance.

    Also love the exerpt about finding the right guild, which is currently the root of my problems.

  7. #82
    Shield of Telara VeroProDiGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himesama View Post
    I wanted to just say great guide! I am a very strong purifier/sent builduser [basically the same as yours slightly shifted points] and have directed some of the people in my guild to this guide since they seem to disagree that a purifier/sentinel build works [they are super sentinel/warden fans].

    Really love that post a few above about the situational use of HI vs RF. I usually alternate the use of HI and RF in in T1/T2/Expert Rifts and will keep those mechanics in mind when I step into Greenscales raid instance.

    Also love the exerpt about finding the right guild, which is currently the root of my problems.
    Thank you for the comments and yes a good balance between RF and HI is key. And yes the guild is most important but be patient and look for a right fit. When server transfers come out but look into cross serer recruitment.

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  8. #83
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    Some fun pvp times with stay small nerds.. don't think I could join the darkside

    Thanks for the guide, has been helpful.. so far liking the sent/puri build you listed. I do have a heavy warden spec for more offhealing output (and ward/sent for pvp funny enough).
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  9. #84
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    Curious why you weight Wisdom higher than Spellpower.

    Doesn't make sense unless you are having mana issues on fights and I personally haven't seen this as an issue. The few times where a mana pot wasn't enough to carry me through a fight I was able to go back over the logs and identify being inefficient as the cause.

    Granted there aren't many situations where you are choosing between Wisdom or Spellpower but still.
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  10. #85
    Shield of Telara VeroProDiGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joena View Post
    Curious why you weight Wisdom higher than Spellpower.

    Doesn't make sense unless you are having mana issues on fights and I personally haven't seen this as an issue. The few times where a mana pot wasn't enough to carry me through a fight I was able to go back over the logs and identify being inefficient as the cause.

    Granted there aren't many situations where you are choosing between Wisdom or Spellpower but still.
    Well your last part is the reason why I stated it.

    You will never have to really choose between Wisdom and spell power outside of your enchant.

    Secondly depending on your spec wisdom is more beneficial for the warden tree let's say overflow.

    The Mana regen is very vital as much as you may not realize it and you get more out of wisdom from the 5% but then again the same can be said for the 5% Spellpower in the sent tree and for ancestral flame.

    But for the majority of things Wisdom will be set higher in priority but in theory yes SP would be better but unfortunately gear is never +20 spell power and +12 int with no wisdom.
    Last edited by VeroProDiGY; 03-27-2011 at 09:29 PM.

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  11. #86
    Telaran Joena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeroProDiGY View Post
    Well your last part is the reason why I stated it.

    But for the majority of things Wisdom will be set higher in priority but in theory yes SP would be better but unfortunately gear is never +20 spell power and +12 int with no wisdom.
    Itemization shouldn't effect stat weighting in a guide though. Spellpower provides higher throughput than Wisdom even in a deeper Warden spec which means that unless you are running out of mana before the end of a fight you should be weighting SP > Wis.

    It's not a huge flaw and I like the guide, but it is a flaw. Especially since it looks like the way you listed it that you think Wis is much greater (>>) than SP. And SP is certainly far more important than Int not equal to it.
    Joena - Sunrest - Den of Madness

  12. #87
    Shield of Telara VeroProDiGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joena View Post
    Itemization shouldn't effect stat weighting in a guide though. Spellpower provides higher throughput than Wisdom even in a deeper Warden spec which means that unless you are running out of mana before the end of a fight you should be weighting SP > Wis.

    It's not a huge flaw and I like the guide, but it is a flaw. Especially since it looks like the way you listed it that you think Wis is much greater (>>) than SP. And SP is certainly far more important than Int not equal to it.
    Wisdom is definitely huge in a deep warden spec if you look at overflow and etc. I guess you can consider it a flaw but this is just how I see it.

    But Appreciate the feedback and I will definitely review it

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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by VeroProDiGY View Post
    The wisdom will help give more spell power and wisdom to moves such as:

    EVERY SINGLE SPELL YOU HAVE
    Ebb and Flow
    Overflow

    Close to never would speccing for a single spell every be better than a static increase to a stat ESPECIALLY when that talent is on a cooldown AND isn't your only go to heal ( See Healing Invocation )
    When I read this, it got me thinking. What about Surging rapids? Wouldn't the exact same logic apply to this talent? I run a build that's quite similar to yours with 34s/29w/5p and I've been speccing this talent without even thinking about it, but after all, what does it really improve? Healing breath. And.... ? Divine Call? Is that is it? I guess that's still pretty good, because those are 2 of our more 'oh @#$!" kind of abilities, but it doesn't apply to any of our instant hots, does it? Certainly doesn't seem to do much for our steady throughput.

    Also, are you finding ebb and flow to be that useful? I've specced it a couple times, but always found it to be too unreliable. It seems to drop off all the time, even when chain casting instants.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leesh View Post
    I didnt read every single page so if this has already been adressed just ignore this post.

    You did in fact make a pretty huge mistake there when calculating the throughput increase of crit:
    When a spell crits it heals for 170% which is true, however it would've hit for 100% anyway hence giving you a 70% increase in healoutoput. The correct calculation should look more like this:

    (170%-100%)x0.38%=0.27% increase in throughput making Int so much worse than Wis in almost every way.
    This is true. You forget however to factor in your talents that proc off of your crit heals. When you assume HI spam, serendipity becomes quite easy to calculate. In the calculation that you linked, a HI of 1875 was used, so i'll keep using that in this calculation. Serendipity gives us a decreased cast time of 1.5 sec on the next cast, meaning that a HI cast time of 3 sec will be cut in half. This means that a serendipity proc basicly gives us half a HI extra over the course of 3 seconds.

    When spamming your 1875 HI, cast time is 3 sec, so HPS = base/3 = 1875/3 = 625 hps

    Increased by 0.32% for 10 wisdom gives:

    625*1.0032 = 627 hps, or 2 hps increase.

    Increased 10 int (=0.38% crit) gives: base/3 + 0.38% * 70% * base/3 + 0.38% + 0.38% * 0.5*base/3

    625 + 0.0038 * 0.7 * 625 + 0.0038 * 0 .5 * 625 = 627.85 hps or 2.85 hps increase

    Off course you could simply say that when spamming HI, a crit actually gives 220% instead of 170% on a crit.

    If you factor in overflow as well, it becomes even more though. Say you have 400 wis, it gives 0.38% chance of healing for 400 every cast, or every 3 sec in this case, or in math:

    625 + 0.0038 * 0.7 * 625 + 0.0038 * 0 .5 * 625 + 0.0038 * 400/3 = 628.35 hps or 3.35 hps increase.

    HI gives the most extreme example though, because when casting 2 sec casts, a crit only gives a 25% increase because of the global cooldown, or 195% on a crit. Overflow will gives more on the other hand, because the cast time goes to 2 sec, the base value will be divided by 2 instead of 3.

  15. #90
    Shield of Telara VeroProDiGY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrodarcniss View Post
    This is true. You forget however to factor in your talents that proc off of your crit heals. When you assume HI spam, serendipity becomes quite easy to calculate. In the calculation that you linked, a HI of 1875 was used, so i'll keep using that in this calculation. Serendipity gives us a decreased cast time of 1.5 sec on the next cast, meaning that a HI cast time of 3 sec will be cut in half. This means that a serendipity proc basicly gives us half a HI extra over the course of 3 seconds.

    When spamming your 1875 HI, cast time is 3 sec, so HPS = base/3 = 1875/3 = 625 hps

    Increased by 0.32% for 10 wisdom gives:

    625*1.0032 = 627 hps, or 2 hps increase.

    Increased 10 int (=0.38% crit) gives: base/3 + 0.38% * 70% * base/3 + 0.38% + 0.38% * 0.5*base/3

    625 + 0.0038 * 0.7 * 625 + 0.0038 * 0 .5 * 625 = 627.85 hps or 2.85 hps increase

    Off course you could simply say that when spamming HI, a crit actually gives 220% instead of 170% on a crit.

    If you factor in overflow as well, it becomes even more though. Say you have 400 wis, it gives 0.38% chance of healing for 400 every cast, or every 3 sec in this case, or in math:

    625 + 0.0038 * 0.7 * 625 + 0.0038 * 0 .5 * 625 + 0.0038 * 400/3 = 628.35 hps or 3.35 hps increase.

    HI gives the most extreme example though, because when casting 2 sec casts, a crit only gives a 25% increase because of the global cooldown, or 195% on a crit. Overflow will gives more on the other hand, because the cast time goes to 2 sec, the base value will be divided by 2 instead of 3.
    I appreciate the numbers to look at

    Keep it up guys I hope to get this thread stickied

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