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Thread: I hope someone helps cleric tanks.

  1. #1
    Soulwalker swiftmeddy's Avatar
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    Default I hope someone helps cleric tanks.

    Dont get me wrong, we arent completely broken. i can tank a t1 and a t2 no problem, ive even tanked the outside raid bosses (of course biting my nails to the bone while doing so).

    I dont think clerics need the convience spells that warriors have. I personally dont care to get a ranged aoe pull, or a taunt on a lower CD. what i personally do care about are two things. The way our gear is itemized, and the way our specs mesh with one another.

    Clerics are already @ a disadvantage considering we have 1 tanking spec compared to the 3 you would get as a warrior (dont get me wrong, im not ignoring rouges only having one defensive spec either) but then our spells do 40% less dmg and healing from opposite specs. which That doesnt seem like much of a problem. more than it seems the coefficients of which our parry and block transfer from stats seems rough, as well as the armor. dodge seems to be a useless talent to even have, why put it on the gear where we could have parry/block which actually benefit us. I cant put 2 and 2 together why a warrior tank that has less gear than i do has 11k armor, where as i have 9k with a 151% armor contribution buff. what kills me is that if SP is our main avoidance buff, why not have it on our shields as well? i have yet to see a shield w/ SP on it. Having 140-190 sp on a shield would be enough to equal out the playing field a little bit considering for every 1 sp we get 1.4 parry rating.

    im sure it may seem like im rambling w/o a point and i probably am. 1.1 i hope the gear being itemized for tanking (I HOPE) will solve most of the tanking issues with clerics. but then again i still dont know if it will be enough to level the playing field for tanks so that clerics arent doomed for OT for eternity. i dont think cleric tanks want to be the number one tank choice, just maybe being an equal choice for every occasion would be nice.

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    Plane Walker Lifeline's Avatar
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    Cleric fails against magic damage... it seems so lame to me that we get a tank soul, but it's only good at physical damage bosses.
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  3. #3
    Telaran
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    think the tank soul is fine as it is, we shouldnt be able to do all 3 roles, 2 is enough healing/dps. Give us all 3 and everyone and their brother will role clerics because they do everything without having 2 characters.

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    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Myrkana View Post
    think the tank soul is fine as it is
    Its not fine as it is, if they give us a tank soul, they need to make it work properly for tanking. If they don't want clerics to tank, then they have to rework the entire justicar soul into something else and not have it as a semi-tank-dps-support thing.

    The argument that if clerics can do all 3 roles, then everyone will roll one, is simply not true. Take a look at WoW, not everyone is a druid (only 11% of the playerbase) even though they can do all 3 roles just like clerics can here in Rift, paladins are the same in WoW (heal, tank, dps) but only 13% (the highest representation) got a paladin.

    Mostly I'm concerned about the itemization, I don't feel confident tanking t1 experts as I my shield is lvl 45 and I only have one item with toughness on it (lvl 47'ish boots).. I've been running a few experts as healer and dps without seeing any cleric tank loot drop, same on the few normals I've run.. I hope that with the new +100 items in experts, I can pick up some loot that will enable me to tank
    Farly - Guardian Cleric, Firesand
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  5. #5
    Plane Touched
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    Few comments on what you said, even though in general I agree. Dodge is better than parry on gear, because we're parry capped from the talent anyway(parry skill caps at 20%parry, can only be increased via talents or abilities that give flat parry increases, which are worded x% parry instead of x parry, and we get 20% with around 600spellpower). They don't put spellpower on shields because they don't want healers/caster cleric to use shields, even though they nerf the armor on them to already prevent them being useful. The reasoning is dumb but that's how it is.

    I listed some fixes before, but in my opinion what justicar needs:

    One good defensive cooldown, such as a damage reduction for 10secs, having a big heal(which is only a 50%heal or so), a crappy shield(25%absorb or so) and a +50%healing for 10secs aren't good defensive cooldowns when stuff is going wrong unless you pop 2 or 3 in a row. Plus they're very deep in Justicar.

    The block buff should last longer(10-12seconds), its value should be reduced but the base block via the spell conversion should be higher. This lets you get solid AE threat without getting trashed by the mobs unless you use one GCD on a single target attack every ~7secs which is horrible on pull. Riftstalkers suffer the same kind of issues with crappy mitigation on pull and a ramp up time, which is terrible mechanic.

    The parry talent needs to be reworked to give both parry and dodge. Currently it's too easy to cap parry, which makes any parry on items useless unless you drop points from it, while our dodge is sitting at like 2% top. Make it scale slower because it'll eventually scale higher, but should give both because there's a cap. Alternatively increase the cap to 30%.

    Self healing isn't mitigation and shouldn't be considered as such. Justicars take more damage than any other tank, both on melee and magic damage. Self healing also scales very poorly especially since it generates low threat, eats GCDs and requires to invest into a healing soul(mostly warden if you want to keep decent heals) or fuel it with convictions which means it's not a constant stream of heals.

    Doctrine of Valiance is terrible, it heals for less than Doctrine of Bliss but consumes all your convictions at once, and does normal attack dmg. It's higher threat but that's about it, and consuming all your convictions is a pretty heft cost to pay for a meager threat increase.

    Threat and DPS are atrociously low. Threat is usually kinda ok, but DPS is terrible, and scales really bad. A tank shouldn't be doing 120-140DPS in a raid with full buffs/debuffs, and that's what Justicars(and Riftstalkers) do. The result of the low DPS is low threat, even with the threat modifier holding aggro on a 1k+ DPS rogue or warrior is borderline impossible unless you get a lot of headstart.

    Overall, an adequate tank while leveling and in T1, kinda meh in T2 and pretty bad in raids. Definitely the worst tank in the game, even though it's not completely horrible. A few changes would make it a lot better though. Having played alpha though, I know Justicars have come a long way from the days you couldn't even tank normal mode instances ^^.

  6. #6
    Ascendant paspinall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swiftmeddy View Post
    Dont get me wrong, we arent completely broken. i can tank a t1 and a t2 no problem, ive even tanked the outside raid bosses (of course biting my nails to the bone while doing so).

    I dont think clerics need the convience spells that warriors have. I personally dont care to get a ranged aoe pull, or a taunt on a lower CD. what i personally do care about are two things. The way our gear is itemized, and the way our specs mesh with one another.

    Clerics are already @ a disadvantage considering we have 1 tanking spec compared to the 3 you would get as a warrior (dont get me wrong, im not ignoring rouges only having one defensive spec either) but then our spells do 40% less dmg and healing from opposite specs. which That doesnt seem like much of a problem. more than it seems the coefficients of which our parry and block transfer from stats seems rough, as well as the armor. dodge seems to be a useless talent to even have, why put it on the gear where we could have parry/block which actually benefit us. I cant put 2 and 2 together why a warrior tank that has less gear than i do has 11k armor, where as i have 9k with a 151% armor contribution buff. what kills me is that if SP is our main avoidance buff, why not have it on our shields as well? i have yet to see a shield w/ SP on it. Having 140-190 sp on a shield would be enough to equal out the playing field a little bit considering for every 1 sp we get 1.4 parry rating.

    im sure it may seem like im rambling w/o a point and i probably am. 1.1 i hope the gear being itemized for tanking (I HOPE) will solve most of the tanking issues with clerics. but then again i still dont know if it will be enough to level the playing field for tanks so that clerics arent doomed for OT for eternity. i dont think cleric tanks want to be the number one tank choice, just maybe being an equal choice for every occasion would be nice.
    There are crafted toughness gear for clerics, and why would dodge not be useful you can still dodge afterall!?

    (as for the riftstalker well the healing from their possible soul isnt much and they get a 30% damage reduction in all their damage, even their own soul)

    At the moment being a healing cleric I can honestly say I am perfectly happy healing a tanking cleric as ours currently stands and i find the healing as comfortable as I do a warrior tanking.

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  7. #7
    Telaran Replay's Avatar
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    The myth that parry caps at 20% needs to die. There was a thread going last week with a guy showing that his paper doll parry of like 27% was parsing accurately. I'm pretty sure the 20% cap was just made up by someone who thought it sounded appropriate at the time.

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    Rift Chaser beawr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replay View Post
    The myth that parry caps at 20% needs to die. There was a thread going last week with a guy showing that his paper doll parry of like 27% was parsing accurately. I'm pretty sure the 20% cap was just made up by someone who thought it sounded appropriate at the time.
    Can you link to this thread? I'm having trouble finding actual numbers on whether there is or is not a 20% parry cap.
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  9. #9
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replay View Post
    The myth that parry caps at 20% needs to die. There was a thread going last week with a guy showing that his paper doll parry of like 27% was parsing accurately. I'm pretty sure the 20% cap was just made up by someone who thought it sounded appropriate at the time.
    Yeah someone mentionned this supposed thread, I went ahead and tested it again(I tested it on alpha when a dev said it was capped to make sure it was), and it still was capped. 19%parry over 800hits on equal level mobs(the 1% is from attacks I can't parry that parse the same on ACT), with 29%parry on paperdoll. I could redo the tests again and again, but I highly doubt I'm gonna find different results, only take 5mins of 4mobs beating on me though.

  10. #10
    Plane Walker Dwarflord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Replay View Post
    The myth that parry caps at 20% needs to die. There was a thread going last week with a guy showing that his paper doll parry of like 27% was parsing accurately. I'm pretty sure the 20% cap was just made up by someone who thought it sounded appropriate at the time.
    Agreed. I run almost 26% parry with buffs and T1 gear. I parsed once before and got about 23% when my parry was at 24% on character sheet. You can't have a shield out or high dodge when you test this though as it will skew results.
    Last edited by Dwarflord; 03-24-2011 at 04:50 AM.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    Good posts, Pyro, agree completly

  12. #12
    Soulwalker
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    i love cleric tanking, but i do find its noit equal.

    i was talking to a friend warrior tank and finding out our avoidance, he had 11% parry and dodge, and 45% block (iirc) with 12.5k armor, on the other hand using roughly equal gear, i get 19-20% parry, 15% ish block (without using the buff) and 9.5k armor.

    i did think it would equal out by us having 18% damage reduction standard (and i have no idea what normal soul'd warrior tanks run with) but im starting to not belive it. to counter the lower armor we should get a passive root box of +5-10% damage reduction at like 38-44 and +1% for every point spent after, as the self healing is no way enough to counter the higher incoming damage

    even my guild healers say i take more damage in t1 than warriors.

    not to mention the lack of silence in justicar, interrupt is nice, but they usally just start casting immediatly after i interrupt them so its only good for stopping big spells, i am tempted to spec hard into another soul to get one, as pulling casters is damn annoying, but that brings me back to us needing to spec heavily into shaman to up our melee dps and threat :/

    a good defensive CD would be so nice, the 2k shield is only like 1 hit in some t1sa, the +50% CD is nice but its still not enough given our tendancy to be squishier than warriors, a +40% block and block value flor 10sec buff would be sweet.

    threat is a minor issue (only seems to be a problem when i group with people who have much better gear than me), a reduction of the aoe taunt should be reduced to 45sec to help, or make even justice cause slightly higher threat (or hell, a nice CD which makes all our abilities cause double threat for 10sec).

    itemisation is weird, but theres already loads of threads about it and no quick fix other than redoing loot tables (i think the easiest fix would be to return the plaques from t2 back to normal, and just force us to buy it like we do currently)

    just my 2p

  13. #13
    Ascendant paspinall's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sorn42 View Post
    i love cleric tanking, but i do find its noit equal.

    i was talking to a friend warrior tank and finding out our avoidance, he had 11% parry and dodge, and 45% block (iirc) with 12.5k armor, on the other hand using roughly equal gear, i get 19-20% parry, 15% ish block (without using the buff) and 9.5k armor.

    i did think it would equal out by us having 18% damage reduction standard (and i have no idea what normal soul'd warrior tanks run with) but im starting to not belive it. to counter the lower armor we should get a passive root box of +5-10% damage reduction at like 38-44 and +1% for every point spent after, as the self healing is no way enough to counter the higher incoming damage

    even my guild healers say i take more damage in t1 than warriors.

    not to mention the lack of silence in justicar, interrupt is nice, but they usally just start casting immediatly after i interrupt them so its only good for stopping big spells, i am tempted to spec hard into another soul to get one, as pulling casters is damn annoying, but that brings me back to us needing to spec heavily into shaman to up our melee dps and threat :/

    a good defensive CD would be so nice, the 2k shield is only like 1 hit in some t1sa, the +50% CD is nice but its still not enough given our tendancy to be squishier than warriors, a +40% block and block value flor 10sec buff would be sweet.

    threat is a minor issue (only seems to be a problem when i group with people who have much better gear than me), a reduction of the aoe taunt should be reduced to 45sec to help, or make even justice cause slightly higher threat (or hell, a nice CD which makes all our abilities cause double threat for 10sec).

    itemisation is weird, but theres already loads of threads about it and no quick fix other than redoing loot tables (i think the easiest fix would be to return the plaques from t2 back to normal, and just force us to buy it like we do currently)

    just my 2p
    See I find the Justicar i heal to be as easy to heal as the warrior tanks over almost all situations.

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  14. #14
    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by paspinall View Post
    See I find the Justicar i heal to be as easy to heal as the warrior tanks over almost all situations.
    +1

    also in many fights that require mobility and aoe healing the justi tank that i run with (i run with all 3 types, warrior, rogue and cleric) will usually pull a doa+dol combo and save me loads of mp and gcds.

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    Rift Chaser beawr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
    Yeah someone mentionned this supposed thread, I went ahead and tested it again(I tested it on alpha when a dev said it was capped to make sure it was), and it still was capped. 19%parry over 800hits on equal level mobs(the 1% is from attacks I can't parry that parse the same on ACT), with 29%parry on paperdoll.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarflord View Post
    Agreed. I run almost 26% parry with buffs and T1 gear. I parsed once before and got about 23% when my parry was at 24% on character sheet. You can't have a shield out or high dodge when you test this though as it will skew results.
    Sounds like you guys are testing them in different ways, and getting different results. Dwarflord, you got over 20% parry only when you took away your ability to block?
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