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Thread: Cleric mana pool and Wisdom

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    Soulwalker Frakir's Avatar
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    Default Cleric mana pool and Wisdom

    For clerics, spell power is gained from a 75%/25% split from Wisdom and Intelligence. While Wisdom is considered a cleric's primary stat, the mana pool of a cleric is determined by their Intelligence. Gear from tier 2 and raid content is highly focused, for healing and casting clerics, on Wisdom. As clerics obtain better gear their spellpower may increase but their overall mana pool does not increase to a similar degree as the mana pool is determined by a statistic that is secondary to the class.

    Mages, by way of contrast, have a Intelligence as the primary stat. Intelligence increase both a mage's spellpower as well as their mana pool. As they gear up, they gain both damage output in addition to the ability to sustain that output (the relative levels of dps compared to other classes is an argument for another thread). As a healing cleric, the healing may increase to some extent from an increase in spellpower, but the sustainability of those heals never increases to any significant extent as there is little or no change to their mana pool. As a dps-caster cleric, again there is a 75% contribution from Wisdom to damage, but again there is no increase to the sustainability of that level of damage as there is in the mage calling.

    It would be nice if, as with the spellpower's 75/25 Wisdom/Intelligence split, mana would also be calculated with a 75%/25% split at the very least, or, preferably a 100% direct tie to the cleric's primary statistic - Wisdom.

    Food for thought.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frakir View Post
    For clerics, spell power is gained from a 75%/25% split from Wisdom and Intelligence. While Wisdom is considered a cleric's primary stat, the mana pool of a cleric is determined by their Intelligence. Gear from tier 2 and raid content is highly focused, for healing and casting clerics, on Wisdom. As clerics obtain better gear their spellpower may increase but their overall mana pool does not increase to a similar degree as the mana pool is determined by a statistic that is secondary to the class.

    Mages, by way of contrast, have a Intelligence as the primary stat. Intelligence increase both a mage's spellpower as well as their mana pool. As they gear up, they gain both damage output in addition to the ability to sustain that output (the relative levels of dps compared to other classes is an argument for another thread). As a healing cleric, the healing may increase to some extent from an increase in spellpower, but the sustainability of those heals never increases to any significant extent as there is little or no change to their mana pool. As a dps-caster cleric, again there is a 75% contribution from Wisdom to damage, but again there is no increase to the sustainability of that level of damage as there is in the mage calling.

    It would be nice if, as with the spellpower's 75/25 Wisdom/Intelligence split, mana would also be calculated with a 75%/25% split at the very least, or, preferably a 100% direct tie to the cleric's primary statistic - Wisdom.

    Food for thought.
    Its fine as it is. As is, they're reasonably close. INT gives crit which synergizes with several talents, and increases your mana pool which will outpace wisdom on short fights. Wis gives more 3 times more Sp and increases regen for longer fights. If sustainability is an issue, you just need better gear, better thought out enchants/focus slots, and/or better healing technique.

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    Soulwalker Frakir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucasa View Post
    Its fine as it is. As is, they're reasonably close. INT gives crit which synergizes with several talents, and increases your mana pool which will outpace wisdom on short fights. Wis gives more 3 times more Sp and increases regen for longer fights. If sustainability is an issue, you just need better gear, better thought out enchants/focus slots, and/or better healing technique.
    I don't think you actually play a cleric. They're not reasonably close unless you switch to cloth armor instead of chain, which would give more emphasis to intelligence over wisdom. The modest amount of crit that you gain from intelligence stays modest because, as I said in the original post, it isn't emphasized in the current cleric itemization. I'm currently raiding in t2+ gear with intelligence primary enhancements in order to raise the base mana pool in my healing spec. The mana regen from wisdom is low and slow no matter what the score is, and you might know that if you play a cleric or any caster for that matter. Yes, wisdom for clerics gives you three times more spellpower than intelligence, which of course does not in any way relate to one's mana pool, which again, was the point. All of this was clearly outlined in the original post which you either failed to either fully read or failed to comprehend.

    I would be more inclined to listening to any argument that you have, provided that you have one that is stat or itemization based, as opposed to your suggestion on my gear - which you probably don't have, my enhancements - which I geared specifically for to increase my mana pool, or my healing technique -which you couldn't possibly know or might not even understand given your response to my original post.

    Thank you for your post, though. It's good to get the useless trolling out of the way first before any real discussion can take place.
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    It would be helpful to understand how mana regeneration is calculated before we address mana concerns. All that I know is that it's not the accepted "1.5 mp10/MP".

    I've asked on a few forums and noone has yet supplied the formula.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frakir View Post
    Thank you for your post, though. It's good to get the useless trolling out of the way first before any real discussion can take place.
    Just because somebody disagrees with you does not make them a troll.

    Wisdom increases your mana regen as well as giving you more spellpower than Intellect does. Both stats increase how long you can keep on healing through a boss fight and they seem to be in decent ratios on gear. If you don't like the ratio of Wisdom to Intellect on Chain armour, there is always cloth armour you can use.

    The person you inappropriately labeled as a troll does have a point though, if you are having mana problems then some better gear would help. Maybe some time on the healing dummy in your major city would help so you can see what is more mana efficient to use when you don't need the throughput.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucasa View Post
    Its fine as it is. As is, they're reasonably close. INT gives crit which synergizes with several talents, and increases your mana pool which will outpace wisdom on short fights. Wis gives more 3 times more Sp and increases regen for longer fights. If sustainability is an issue, you just need better gear, better thought out enchants/focus slots, and/or better healing technique.
    no?

    mana regen is horribly broken in this game.

    i would ASSUME that because main stat of mages is int that doesn't increase mana regen they were given their countless ways of in combat regeneration spells.

    on the contrary clerics were given almost none (in their heal souls that is).

    the broken part is that scaling of mana regen is ridicusly horrid.

    at 400+ wis, full t1 i have about 135-140mp/10sec. Yeah, a whole 14mp/sec!

    14mp/sec is just.. laughable when our basic non aoe heal has 90+mana cost (and it's the most mana efficient i think we get)

    so lets comapre. A cleric has 3k mp and 14mp/sec regen. A mage has 6k mp and 9-10mp/sec regen (without counting any of the cheap ways they can regen mana in combat), dothe math and find out who will run out first.

    Mana regeneration through wisdom need to have 0 diminishing return the same way that mana increase from int has none.

    i would assume giving a static 0.7mp/10sec for each point of wisdom would be enough. At 400-500 wisdom this will equal to 280-350mp/10sec.

    This way we would lose mana everytime we use anything else that our basic heal, all of our reactives/cds/aoe heals/instants/insertwhatever will take a toll on our mp and thus limit us, but we could at least chain cast our most efficient heal the same way ANY soul can chain cast their basic attack/whatever ability with no fear.

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    Dont even get me started on drains. They take something unbalanced from the get go, and knock 100x farther to the extreme. This one VK told me to my face that I just needed to stack wis more for crazy mana regen to counter his drains. People like him make me wish that warriors were locked until you had leveled a healer to 50.

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    Soulwalker Frakir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udeze View Post
    Just because somebody disagrees with you does not make them a troll.
    You're right - but ignoring the content of the post and adding nothing to the discussion except "get better gear or technique" is trolling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udeze View Post
    Wisdom increases your mana regen as well as giving you more spellpower than Intellect does. Both stats increase how long you can keep on healing through a boss fight and they seem to be in decent ratios on gear. If you don't like the ratio of Wisdom to Intellect on Chain armour, there is always cloth armour you can use.
    Yes, intelligence gives you both mana and a small margin of spellpower. Wisdom gives you spellpower. They do not equally influence how long on can heal through a long fight or a raid encounter. They are not in equal ratios on t1-t2 or higher gear. Yes, there is cloth, but you lose both armor and a disproportionate amount of spellpower for each point of intelligence you add by switching to cloth. If it comes down to itemization, which is the angle that you seem to be getting at, then maybe re-itemizing chain to have higher intelligence is what you think would be a good idea for the class as a whole (since I'm addressing class mechanics, not my personal choices).

    Quote Originally Posted by Udeze View Post
    The person you inappropriately labeled as a troll does have a point though
    Covered and not at all relevant to the discussion at hand. If he's a friend of yours, I'm sorry you feel bad about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udeze View Post
    , if you are having mana problems then some better gear would help. [
    Since, as with the previous person who posted, neither of you have any idea of what I'm geared with (nor is it directly relevant to what I am talking about since I am addressing a basic fault in the way that cleric primary stat actually functions in term of the scaling of the mana pool), but both of you suggest that somehow game mechanics make it a gear issue on my part, I'll give you an idea of my gear.

    My guild and I have cleared all t2 5man content, we farm raid rifts, and, as of this post, we are working on the third boss in Greenscale. I am geared with a combination of t2 plaque gear,
    which is specifically itemized for caster clerics (no, I am not using the tanking set) and t2 dropped gear, with my major and lesser slots filled with mostly raid rift drops. I lose out on spellpower to put +int faction enhancements on my armor.

    When I say that my gear is not the issue, I mean that I am currently equipping the best available pre-tier 3 gear that is supposedly itemized for clerics. Spec choices also include a 10% reduction in mana costs to all healing spells. I still have a 40% or smaller mana pool compared to an equivalently geared mage due to game/stat mechanics.

    As with the previous person who was concerned with things other than the substance of my post, maybe people who haven't been involved in long encounters don't understand 'why' it could be an issue, which is not required at all to understand 'how' it is an issue - which is what I was getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udeze View Post
    Maybe some time on the healing dummy in your major city would help so you can see what is more mana efficient to use when you don't need the throughput.
    Maybe some time focusing on the content of the question I've posed would help move the discussion along. That way, I wouldn't have to say, "You're completely missing the point" so often.

    To recap:

    INT gives mana
    WIS does not

    Spellpower, for clerics, is determined with a formula of 75% contribution from WIS and 25% from INT.

    To provide a contrast between two classes that require mana to operate:

    Mages have a higher mana pool that increase as they gear up
    Clerics have a much smaller increase in their mana pool IF they use their primary armor type - chain,
    because it emphasizes WIS by 2:1 or more in some cases.

    Wouldn't it seem more balanced if, for MANA POOL purposes, if mana was given to clerics 75/25 since spellpower is also determined for clerics at a 75/25 rate of return?
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    Rift Disciple GoldX18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frakir View Post
    You're right - but ignoring the content of the post and adding nothing to the discussion except "get better gear or technique" is trolling.



    Yes, intelligence gives you both mana and a small margin of spellpower. Wisdom gives you spellpower. They do not equally influence how long on can heal through a long fight or a raid encounter. They are not in equal ratios on t1-t2 or higher gear. Yes, there is cloth, but you lose both armor and a disproportionate amount of spellpower for each point of intelligence you add by switching to cloth. If it comes down to itemization, which is the angle that you seem to be getting at, then maybe re-itemizing chain to have higher intelligence is what you think would be a good idea for the class as a whole (since I'm addressing class mechanics, not my personal choices).



    Covered and not at all relevant to the discussion at hand. If he's a friend of yours, I'm sorry you feel bad about it.



    Since, as with the previous person who posted, neither of you have any idea of what I'm geared with (nor is it directly relevant to what I am talking about since I am addressing a basic fault in the way that cleric primary stat actually functions in term of the scaling of the mana pool), but both of you suggest that somehow game mechanics make it a gear issue on my part, I'll give you an idea of my gear.

    My guild and I have cleared all t2 5man content, we farm raid rifts, and, as of this post, we are working on the third boss in Greenscale. I am geared with a combination of t2 plaque gear,
    which is specifically itemized for caster clerics (no, I am not using the tanking set) and t2 dropped gear, with my major and lesser slots filled with mostly raid rift drops. I lose out on spellpower to put +int faction enhancements on my armor.

    When I say that my gear is not the issue, I mean that I am currently equipping the best available pre-tier 3 gear that is supposedly itemized for clerics. Spec choices also include a 10% reduction in mana costs to all healing spells. I still have a 40% or smaller mana pool compared to an equivalently geared mage due to game/stat mechanics.

    As with the previous person who was concerned with things other than the substance of my post, maybe people who haven't been involved in long encounters don't understand 'why' it could be an issue, which is not required at all to understand 'how' it is an issue - which is what I was getting at.



    Maybe some time focusing on the content of the question I've posed would help move the discussion along. That way, I wouldn't have to say, "You're completely missing the point" so often.

    To recap:

    INT gives mana
    WIS does not

    Spellpower, for clerics, is determined with a formula of 75% contribution from WIS and 25% from INT.

    To provide a contrast between two classes that require mana to operate:

    Mages have a higher mana pool that increase as they gear up
    Clerics have a much smaller increase in their mana pool IF they use their primary armor type - chain,
    because it emphasizes WIS by 2:1 or more in some cases.

    Wouldn't it seem more balanced if, for MANA POOL purposes, if mana was given to clerics 75/25 since spellpower is also determined for clerics at a 75/25 rate of return?
    It is very annoying how INT adds mana and WIS adds regen/sp, I think at least the other caster types (mages) should be similar in design, why was this (Wis = mana as well) not the case for clerics?

    You have a good point, so stick with it, hopefully they will fix this.
    Last edited by GoldX18; 03-19-2011 at 09:03 AM.

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    The mana regen rate is a joke. Even with a small mana pool, it takes upwards of 3 minutes to fully regen....compared to the 2 seconds from drinking. Meanwhile mages have much larger mana pools, better regen abilities, and better spell crit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frakir View Post
    You're right - but ignoring the content of the post and adding nothing to the discussion except "get better gear or technique" is trolling.



    Yes, intelligence gives you both mana and a small margin of spellpower. Wisdom gives you spellpower. They do not equally influence how long on can heal through a long fight or a raid encounter. They are not in equal ratios on t1-t2 or higher gear. Yes, there is cloth, but you lose both armor and a disproportionate amount of spellpower for each point of intelligence you add by switching to cloth. If it comes down to itemization, which is the angle that you seem to be getting at, then maybe re-itemizing chain to have higher intelligence is what you think would be a good idea for the class as a whole (since I'm addressing class mechanics, not my personal choices).



    Covered and not at all relevant to the discussion at hand. If he's a friend of yours, I'm sorry you feel bad about it.



    Since, as with the previous person who posted, neither of you have any idea of what I'm geared with (nor is it directly relevant to what I am talking about since I am addressing a basic fault in the way that cleric primary stat actually functions in term of the scaling of the mana pool), but both of you suggest that somehow game mechanics make it a gear issue on my part, I'll give you an idea of my gear.

    My guild and I have cleared all t2 5man content, we farm raid rifts, and, as of this post, we are working on the third boss in Greenscale. I am geared with a combination of t2 plaque gear,
    which is specifically itemized for caster clerics (no, I am not using the tanking set) and t2 dropped gear, with my major and lesser slots filled with mostly raid rift drops. I lose out on spellpower to put +int faction enhancements on my armor.

    When I say that my gear is not the issue, I mean that I am currently equipping the best available pre-tier 3 gear that is supposedly itemized for clerics. Spec choices also include a 10% reduction in mana costs to all healing spells. I still have a 40% or smaller mana pool compared to an equivalently geared mage due to game/stat mechanics.

    As with the previous person who was concerned with things other than the substance of my post, maybe people who haven't been involved in long encounters don't understand 'why' it could be an issue, which is not required at all to understand 'how' it is an issue - which is what I was getting at.



    Maybe some time focusing on the content of the question I've posed would help move the discussion along. That way, I wouldn't have to say, "You're completely missing the point" so often.

    To recap:

    INT gives mana
    WIS does not

    Spellpower, for clerics, is determined with a formula of 75% contribution from WIS and 25% from INT.

    To provide a contrast between two classes that require mana to operate:

    Mages have a higher mana pool that increase as they gear up
    Clerics have a much smaller increase in their mana pool IF they use their primary armor type - chain,
    because it emphasizes WIS by 2:1 or more in some cases.

    Wouldn't it seem more balanced if, for MANA POOL purposes, if mana was given to clerics 75/25 since spellpower is also determined for clerics at a 75/25 rate of return?
    You say I'm completely missing the point and I have to say you are right, cause you apparently have no point. All I can see from this and your original post is that you have a smaller mana pool than you would like. However, you've also listed a list of how you've cleared most of the progression content. If you're clearing the content anyway, how is this a problem? Are you running out of mana too early? (Yet still downing bosses and getting gear?) Would increasing the regen rate of Wisdom not also fix this problem if you are running out of mana?

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    Soulwalker Frakir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Udeze View Post
    You say I'm completely missing the point and I have to say you are right, cause you apparently have no point.
    I'll restate it again, simply, in deference to you.

    Clerics do not have the equivalent mana pool increase that mages do given the same point investment in their main stat. Clearing higher level content necessitates the use of mana potions when healing in several encounters - something that an entire calling does not need to do, also as a result of how stats affect mana pool calculation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udeze View Post
    All I can see from this and your original post is that you have a smaller mana pool than you would like.
    Reading comprehension... I was making a case for both healing and ranged dps clerics, but if for some reason you would like to focus on me for whatever reason, then yes, I personally feel that I do not have the mana pool that is similar to a mage of equivalent level and gear. I have not enhanced my gear in an optimal fashion under the current stat balance in order to create a larger mana pool at the expense of spellpower. I have done so because I believe that the way that mana pool calculated for clerics is inappropriate given the split nature of our primary statistics, and yes, healers need mana.

    While switching to cloth is an option, again it is a function of falling behind in one or more areas to do so, something which the mage calling does not have to worry about. Therefore, to me, I do not believe it is an adequate solution to the issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udeze View Post
    However, you've also listed a list of how you've cleared most of the progression content. If you're clearing the content anyway, how is this a problem? Are you running out of mana too early? (Yet still downing bosses and getting gear?)
    Dead horse... beaten. Yes, mana runs out. Yes, it is a problem. One solution is to use consumables, something which can create an additional time and/or currency sink for a class due to an imbalance in the way stats work at the present time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Udeze View Post
    Would increasing the regen rate of Wisdom not also fix this problem if you are running out of mana?
    Finally, an interesting suggestion. Yes, it would help counterbalance the disparity if regeneration was increased by a factor of 10 from its current level. This would also give a hefty boost to mages as mage gear is often given wisdom as a secondary stat. In order to bring about parity between the callings, having the mana pool derive from the same split that gives spellpower would both immediately and directly bring clerics into parity with mages.

    Not everything is personal.
    Last edited by Frakir; 03-19-2011 at 07:57 PM.
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    Well I have no Idea how long raid fights take, but as far as I can tell wisdom wins after 5mins

    1wis = 0,033 mp/s (what I get from my profile)
    1int = 10 mp
    300s x 0,033 mp/s = 10mp

    Though I guess it's more of an issue for wardens, where the mana talent + cascade puts it closer to7-8mins (assuming you can cast it on your self, and it works of your max mana and not your base. I don't play a warden )

    or 4:30mins with both wisdom talents (assumeing you can keep ebb and flow up)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lilrys View Post
    Well I have no Idea how long raid fights take, but as far as I can tell wisdom wins after 5mins

    1wis = 0,033 mp/s (what I get from my profile)
    1int = 10 mp
    300s x 0,033 mp/s = 10mp

    Though I guess it's more of an issue for wardens, where the mana talent + cascade puts it closer to7-8mins (assuming you can cast it on your self, and it works of your max mana and not your base. I don't play a warden )

    or 4:30mins with both wisdom talents (assumeing you can keep ebb and flow up)
    This is the source of the issue. It takes 5 minutes for 1 wis to equal 1 int.

    This coupled with the cost of spells, when the mana does run dry we have to sit there like goofs for extended periods of time.

    Mages, melee clerics and to a lesser extent caster dps clerics have tools to extend the life of their mana pool. Why do healing clerics have only have Cascade?

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    I would like to point out, if a healer had unlimited mana, like they seemed to in the beta, healing would become too damn easy, and everyone would quit warden to spam heals like Healing Grace, as it wouldn't dent your mana, as it didn't in the beta. I remember my first run of It in the beta, we did everything wrong, everything you were supposed to avoid, such as the phantasms, or dps racing the shards. We went head first and I spam healed through it all, every boss, every pull, only 1 heal, no mana breaks ever, spamming even when not needed, without loosing much mana, because regen put my mana back up to full by the time i started casting the next heal.

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