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Thread: Why you SHOULDNT buy new spell ranks

  1. #1
    Rift Chaser
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    Default Why you SHOULDNT buy new spell ranks

    Was doing some testing earlier, and realized that the coeffecient for Spellpower doesn't change at all between lower and higher level spells. The mana cost usually increases substantially however for what is usually a very marginal increase in the damage/healing done. This means that as you get higher level and especially as you add more spell power, lower ranks of spells are much more mana efficient then the higher ranks. That of course comes with a loss of HPS, but often the trade-off for more efficiency is more then worth it. Unfortunately, Rift doesn't allow any way of using a lower rank after you have bought a higher one, so your only option is to just not buy the new rank.

    Now of course that doesn't mean you shouldn't level ANY of your spells, in fact you should probably level most of them, but don't just automatically buy a new level because its available.

    Spells you SHOULDN'T "downrank" -
    Spammable single-target nukes/heals: Your base spells like BOJ and Healing Invocation are already pretty mana efficient, and you really depend on them for your main source of DPS/HPS. Bigger Invocations also cause bigger Hot's from Lasting Invocation. You could make a case for keeping Invocation a level or two lower if you're seeing a lot of overhealing, but in general I would probably keep it maxed out. Probably Healing Way as well.

    Spells with a long CD - Spells that offer a big burst on a longish CD are used seldom enough that you probably want the burst when its there.

    Hots/Dots - Mostly the same as above. They're effectively spells with a short CD and usually you want the full effect when they're up.

    Buffs - Normally used out of combat and fairly infrequently, so mana use really isnt an issue. Better to get the full effect.

    Spells you SHOULD downrank - AOES!!!! Prayer of Communion and Tyranny, Circle of Oblivion... come immediately to mind. The mana cost of both these spells is ridiculous and in the case of Prayer, much of the healing is usually overheal. Plus, if you keep the mana cost down, casting Prayer to proc Serendipity becomes a viable strategy. The coeffecient across all targets is normally pretty good anyway so I didn't see a huge difference in HPS relative to the enormous mana savings.. especially in the case of Tyranny where much of the damage is coming from Decay stacks anyway. I'm sure theres spells along these lines for many souls, but these two really stuck out because of how quickly the mana cost goes up.

    Spammable Instants - Healing Flare, Water Jet etc. The coefficient on these spells isnt that good, but they're spammable. The big drawback with spells like this is they are horribly inefficient, a problem which using lower ranks helps mitigate. The nice thing about leaving these spells at level 1 though is that it gives you a cheap instant way to fish for procs from other spells/items like Serendipity. In PVP this could be particularly handy as it allows you to get small cheap Flares off while moving then stop for a greatly reduced Healing way or Invocation after a proc. I'd probably consider putting Decay in this category too since I mostly use it for the stacks. Also spells like Crushing Wave that are used more for utility then damage, especially as a healer.


    I'm sure there are many other spells this would apply to as well, but this is the basic idea. Also keep in mind that though it may not seem worth it at lower levels, the value of downranking increases dramatically as your spellpower increases and becomes a larger % of your total damage, and since you can't "unlearn" a spell I'd recommend at least considering this before automatically buying everything as soon as you get it.

    Thoughts? Comments?
    Last edited by Lucasa; 03-01-2011 at 04:00 PM.

  2. #2
    Telaran Owen's Avatar
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    Only thing I have to say is I hope every person I ever come across in PvP thinks like you and uses your strategies, and none of the people I ever party with try this.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Owen View Post
    Only thing I have to say is I hope every person I ever come across in PvP thinks like you and uses your strategies, and none of the people I ever party with try this.
    Thanks for the well thought out response.. Oh wait.

  4. #4
    Soulwalker
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    You are obviously trying to exploit the system, so it would be worth reporting this strange design of spells if it as obviously flawed as you say it is. Do this instead of promoting this as a valid method of playing, as it would no doubt be removed if a dev sees a problem with it,

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azae View Post
    You are obviously trying to exploit the system, so it would be worth reporting this strange design of spells if it as obviously flawed as you say it is. Do this instead of promoting this as a valid method of playing, as it would no doubt be removed if a dev sees a problem with it,
    Really? Exploiting the system? This isn't beta anymore.. If its a POSSIBLE method of playing, its a valid method of playing.

    And it's only viable because of the poor design in how spells level up. Buying a new rank of a spell shouldn't make it less efficient. In the case of Prayer of Communion or Tyranny it makes it MUCH less efficient. If you're constantly buying the new ranks of these spells, they become almost unusable in any sustained fight. I'd love for them to make it unnecessary, but to do that they'd have to increase the base healing amount or reduce the mana cost of many of our spells.
    Last edited by Lucasa; 03-01-2011 at 04:43 PM.

  6. #6
    Telaran Shiferbrains's Avatar
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    Default I like your thoughts.

    You have some good ideas.

    My AoE heals are fairly expensive and i could ge a lot more bang for your buck by using a lower level version.

    Your detractors on here a fairly short shighted.

    There is no reason not to gain every advantage you can get out of the sytem available.

    Its not cheating. It's just playing smart.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander
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    Buying spell ranks is an outdated idea anyway. Since you don't even buy new skills from trainers Trion should simply allow the spells to scale (like they do now) while also scaling the mana cost.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    OP is right that it doesn't make sense for spells to become more inefficient as they rank up. This will probably be changed.

  9. #9
    Sword of Telara Gradient's Avatar
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    If cleric mana wasn't the complete opposite of rogue and warrior infinitybars, and if cleric mana regen tools weren't gimp, there wouldn't be a need for threads like these.

    Well thought out post, but what clerics need is a fix for the under lying problem, our mana bars are about 8x too small, and our toolset for filling them is insufficient.

    Guild/Raid leader of Shoreline 5/8 ID (No reflect Rusila, hardmode Conclave) Recruiting a few more excellent raiders: for Infernal Dawn progression

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    I remember this is how good clerics worked in Aion. The problem is that this game does not let you pick between your various versions. Buying ranks should never make spells 'worse' overall as a matter of principle. Good catch. Need to notify my cleric buds.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker Alycia's Avatar
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    Up in the air about this.... yes, really good, well thought-out ideas. But it does seem like something the devs will be looking into fixing.

    Will definitely be interesting to see if they do implement some changes to address the mana efficiency issues though, so keep an eye out for that.

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple NoxDragon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azae View Post
    You are obviously trying to exploit the system, so it would be worth reporting this strange design of spells if it as obviously flawed as you say it is. Do this instead of promoting this as a valid method of playing, as it would no doubt be removed if a dev sees a problem with it,
    So - doing what is optimal based on mechanics is ... an exploit?

    lawl

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple Abazigal's Avatar
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    This is certainly true concerning pve, but imo for pvp you're better off maxing everything, spamable instants included as every little dmg helps, however that only counts for solo pvp roaming in which lies the problem.

    At the end of the day everyone should be getting 4 souls (well, I will..), 1 for solo pve, 1 for group pve, 1 for solo pvp and 1 for group pvp.

    Sadly once you buy certain skills from certain proffessions they also count for the other souls in case they're in there, so it's not as viable as it sounds.

    A proper fix would be to patch this and get it over with, until then I cba paying attention to all that...although it might help some others.

    Good post, nontheless.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched Glorion's Avatar
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    Just because it's no longer beta does not mean you should take advantage of an exploit. That mind-set is dumb. I'm not saying this is an exploit however.
    Harlequin

    Oceanic Gaming Community


  15. #15
    Rift Disciple Tweaq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lucasa View Post
    Really? Exploiting the system? This isn't beta anymore.. If its a POSSIBLE method of playing, its a valid method of playing.
    Thats the ticket. Following this advice, people should take performance enhancing drugs in athletics, disobey engine capacity limits in motorsport, and break into shops at night as long as nobody can see you do it.

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