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Thread: Lack of Efficent Enhance roles for Cleric - Justicar, A Case Study (w/TL;DR)

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Lack of Efficent Enhance roles for Cleric - Justicar, A Case Study (w/TL;DR)

    +1

    So I was doing some theory crafting with the Cleric souls, and reviewing the capabilites of other classes and noticed something that made me a little disappointed. This is the lack of a true support intended soul.

    Now what I mean by this is a soul that was INTENDED by the designers of the game to be used in a support fashion (as in they can be quoted in saying X is meant to tank, Y is meant to DPS). Not combinations of souls that work out well in support roles, or specific builds for souls, but the whole soul itself meant for a specific role. A little while back the developers made a post stating what the intended purpose for each soul was in each class (I lost the post, but the chart is listed here: http://rift.zam.com/wiki/Cleric_%28Rift%29).

    Now look at the chart in that link, versus the equivelent one with rogue. We have 4 DPS, 3 Heals, and a Tank soul. Anyone else find it a bit strange that rogues of all classes got the DPS, Heal, Enhance spec, while we have zero; let me repeat that again for emphasis, ZERO, enhance based or even related souls. Additionally we have more DPS oriented specs than healing specs.

    I understand the developers intentions to make all classes have most roles available to them in some combination. In that the souls themselves were INTENDED to be those roles. Though why is it that clerics get no enhancement oriented spec?

    As a concept I love Justicar, but as far as implementation and usage I find it to be a bit of an outlier. What is the design choice in making Justicar a tank oriented spec rather than say a support oriented spec? From a general point of view, I can see a lot more synergy and possible usage as Justicar as an off healer/DPS/support, rather than a terrible DPS, odd self-healing playstyle tank.

    This is even seems to be reflected in the cleric community as a whole when designing builds. Almost 90% of the time, people are taking the Justicar for the healing through DPS, and Reperation playstyle, rather then the self-healing tank. Mixing it with souls such as Shaman, Sentinel, Druid, or Inq, to boost healing or DPS.

    Almost all the builds I see avoid the blocking talents, and aim more towards the role I would imagine the Justicar to be: a DPS/Support/Healing Hybrid.

    To me personally it also makes more sense for us to be missing the Tank style role as our shortcoming rather than the Enhance (Out of the 5 roles, DPS, Heal, Tank, Enhance,Pet). It would provide Clerics overall with more utility, and synergy across builds. Yet of all classes who gets this roles it is the Bard (for those of you who payed attention to the chart). The Bard was stated BY TRION as being a DPS, Heals, Enhance, Ranged Healer, soul.

    I would really love Trion for redo some of the Justicars talents and spells to orient it towards being a DPS, Heals, Enhance, Melee Healer soul. It would allow the cleric community more thorough synergistic usages of the soul, provide us with the Enhance role we desperately need, and in reality give us the playstyle almost all of us are trying to build when not going pure healer, or pure DPS.

    I would really love to hear the communities feedback on this, both positive and negative. If you disapprove of chaning the Justicar from tank to DPS, Healer, Enhance, explain what sort of negative impact you believe this would have on builds, and our demand in the player populace.

    I have plenty of follow-up ideas on what sort of small changes and reorientations can be done with the talent tree to make it into DPS, Healer, Enhance.

    Best Regards,
    Premonition

    TL;DR: Why do Clerics have ZERO enhance souls. Why do Bards get the DPS, Healer, Enhance, soul and we get a mediocre tank? Make Justicar DPS, Healer, Enhance, Melee Healing. Everyone is trying to build Justicar into that anyways.

    P.S. If you support the overall view of the thread, start it with a "+1" like mine so any Trion employee browsing can see the support for this view.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    how do you mean by support? a buffer?

    they simply didnt chose not to, you could also ask why warriors dont have enhance/healer soul or why mages dont have a tanking soul.

    also, bards are not healers, they provide healing but cant really do much on their own.

  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    what*

    and btw, no, removing justicar's ability to tank just to give him a couple of raid buffs would be completely dumb.
    Last edited by eduh; 02-28-2011 at 04:37 PM.

  4. #4
    General of Telara Doktor_Ljubavi's Avatar
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    No.

    I do not support this at all.

    I rolled Cleric because I like the concept of Justicar, it needs some tweaks, but it's far from ineffective. I have been tanking with Justicar up to FC, and I've had almost no problem. Still beat FC, and it can be pretty tough.

    By the way, rogues do not have a healing soul. Bards are good at off healing but they cannot main heal, short of easy instances with a Justicar tanking like IT(I've done it).

    Clerics have three healing souls, that's enough support. Let the bards, and archons handle buffs.

    The reason you see builds avoiding block talents isn't because they want to be a dps support role, they do it because shield itemization is incredibly terrible. I tank with a two hander, and do a fantastic job with it. (I receive compliments for it). The high spell power on two handed maces + parry talent is enough mitigation through parrying to tank well.

    Do not speak for the Cleric community. Justicar is far from a mediocre tank.
    http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv43/Unholiologist/fictionsaysninjaassassin.jpg

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    I'd say its fairly balanced.

    Clerics can Tank, Heal(most versatile healer), melee, or spell dps - they have no buffing class
    Rogues can melee dps, ranged dps, tank or support -- they have no healer
    Mages can spell dps, heal, or support --- they have no tank
    Warriors can "melee" (some of this is at range) dps, or tank(most versatile tank) - they have no healer

    no archetype has everything. Rogue and clerics are the most versatile with clerics getting the slight edge for having the trinity (heals, dps, tank) that the other 3 don't have.
    Last edited by Orishas; 02-28-2011 at 04:49 PM.

  6. #6
    Champion
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    While I would have liked to see clerics get a dedicated support soul, I'm pretty happy that justicar exists as a tanking soul.

    I am NOT very happy with the poor way that Justicar interacts with shields, having a bunch of branches relating to blocking, yet lacking the ability to actually block (that is, reduce through the use of a shield) incoming damage.

    Essentially, the only benefit of a shield to a justicar is the following:

    1) A slight boost in armor (but not as much as the shields that warriors can use)

    2) The ability to regain a modest amount of mana through blocking (even though damage is not reduced at all)

    3) A useful attack which requires a shield to be equipped.

    For all intents and purposes, cleric shields might as well not even exist, and the various blocking branches ought to simply tie in to Parry instead. I think it would be a lot more interesting if we had shield using tanks (warriors), two handed wielding tanks (clerics) and duel wielding tanks (rogues).

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Howl_UK's Avatar
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    I'm 29 with puri/sent main and cab/inq dps spec so today I invested in a third role for a bit of a justicar/inquis AoE spec. I sunk all my points in, around 19/19ish or something like that in justicar and inquisitor, picking up the blocking talents and the 5-mob AoE swing. Then I went to the shops to sort out a 1h mace and shield and.... WTF?

    Needless to say, I haven't actually played with that role yet as the whole shield and block situation just looked like a total ****up. 9 talent points into increasing block rating by 60% and yet clerics have no strength and therefore no block rating in the first place. Am I missing something in the itemisation or is this soul a work in progress?

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    my justicar 2h tanked dd at 21 for a group of 21s, that's before you even get the aoe taunt and most of the spell power to parry buff. he's even more ridiculous now

    they are just as competitive as other tanks and offer many unique advantages being its a cleric class

    anyone who says they aren't obviously has never seen one properly tank

    I would never trade this option for a buff bot wtf
    Last edited by Prolyfic; 02-28-2011 at 07:52 PM.

  9. #9
    Soulwalker
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    I agree with most of the posters here. I've only done Real of the Fae yet, but tanking it with my justicar was great fun, and far from inefficient. Please don't take that away from me.
    Last edited by Nowaysis; 03-01-2011 at 01:03 AM.

  10. #10
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Howl_UK View Post
    I'm 29 with puri/sent main and cab/inq dps spec so today I invested in a third role for a bit of a justicar/inquis AoE spec. I sunk all my points in, around 19/19ish or something like that in justicar and inquisitor, picking up the blocking talents and the 5-mob AoE swing. Then I went to the shops to sort out a 1h mace and shield and.... WTF?

    Needless to say, I haven't actually played with that role yet as the whole shield and block situation just looked like a total ****up. 9 talent points into increasing block rating by 60% and yet clerics have no strength and therefore no block rating in the first place. Am I missing something in the itemisation or is this soul a work in progress?
    Yes, I believe you and many other people looking at the Justicar tree are indeed missing something very important regarding block mechanics.

    The tier 3 talent Stalwart Citadel increases your Block Rating stat by 30% of your spellpower stat. Block Rating doesn't just govern how often you block, it also governs how much you block for, as a percentage of incoming damage. This one talent is basically the block version of the spell -> melee stat coversions the Faith in Action passive gives all the melee clerics.

    As an aside, AFAIK the amount of armour on a shield does nothing for how much you block for, it's just generic armour, same as any other piece of equipment.

    With that said, in beta at least, I still didn't seem to block for very much damage even in best case scenarioes, and the addition of the parry stat conversion talent seemed to make block appear even worse comparatively. I also just noticed that Mien of Leadership doesn't seem to double your defensive stats any more, at least on the Zam character builder, is that correct?

    So is block great? Probably not right now unless *I'm* missing something as well, but the talent structure is in place to allow it to be a good stat for Justicars.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker Niamh's Avatar
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    Just no. Please leave Justicar as it is. Cleric ability to tank is precious in this game.

    If you want a support soul in the cleric calling, why not pick on Druid?

  12. #12
    Rift Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fisshid View Post
    With that said, in beta at least, I still didn't seem to block for very much damage even in best case scenarioes, and the addition of the parry stat conversion talent seemed to make block appear even worse comparatively. I also just noticed that Mien of Leadership doesn't seem to double your defensive stats any more, at least on the Zam character builder, is that correct?

    So is block great? Probably not right now unless *I'm* missing something as well, but the talent structure is in place to allow it to be a good stat for Justicars.
    You block for a percentage of the incoming damage. Knocking 20% off the unmitigated (after all damage reduction abilities) portion of a boss swing 30% (talented refuge) of the time the swing actually hits is a pretty significant thing. Sure on trash and solo mobs that hit like wet noodles the numbers are unimpressive but when you start seeing (300 blocked) and the like you'll understand.

    MoL increases your armor by at least +112% (more than doubles it) with a cap at +151% (not counting the +21% available in actual talents). Ergo, justis can increase their armor by 172% of the base value. When you consider that plate starts out ~30% ahead of chain not counting shields, you can see that for the end result to be competetive the warrior shields need to make up a lot of ground-this is why cleric shields have comparatively bad armor ratings. The alternative of putting similar rating on shields would require nerfing the armor on every other piece of chain gear which would murder non-justis in pvp or 2-hd justis.
    Last edited by bri bates; 03-01-2011 at 06:15 AM.

  13. #13
    Telaran
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    Justicar IS a tank AND support soul. You can spec for either depending on your other souls. Reparation + Doctrine of Loyalty + Beacon.

    If DPS/Healing Support (w/ Mein of Honour, Reparation and Beacon), go Shaman/Justicar, IF Tank, go (With Mein of Leadership, Reparation and Beacon on Healer), go Justicar (Max Points 2h with Parry or 1h with block)/Any other soul you enjoy

  14. #14
    Soulwalker RadiantDark's Avatar
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    Default Um, No.

    Justicar is to me the best tank in the game.

    There is nothing I can't tank, Armor is just fine and I'm sitting at 5k health.

    My only real deal is the crappy spellpower on one handed weapons. Had to switch out 1 handed mace to daggers, literally the same damage per swing only at 1.7 speed, v.s. the 1 handed maces 2.+. Spellpower = Attack power. If you take the first 5 in druid you can also bump up your spellpower to attack power conversion by another 5%. Same with Shaman.

    As far as the shield, I see no issues with blocking what so ever. Stopping skipping the blocking talents and you would block more. Der. O.o

    Think Pally Tank, and everything will make sense. They are literally the exact same, Minus not wearing plate.
    But that is all made up with Mein of Leadership.

    As far as turning Justicar into a support role. If you do that Trion you will lose all respect from me.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by bri bates View Post
    You block for a percentage of the incoming damage. Knocking 20% off the unmitigated (after all damage reduction abilities) portion of a boss swing 30% (talented refuge) of the time the swing actually hits is a pretty significant thing. Sure on trash and solo mobs that hit like wet noodles the numbers are unimpressive but when you start seeing (300 blocked) and the like you'll understand.
    Don't get me wrong, I'm in the "Stop complaining about Justi block, it's not broken!" camp as well. I think my post history contains nothing else My final musings were more along the lines of whether the scaling was quite right yet. In isolation, I think the block value does seem useful, but I did raise my eyebrows at the parry talent that was added. In beta at around level 24, I think I would had around a 30% chance to block about 15% damage, but through parry I had around a 20% chance to block all damage. For a tree that seemed so much about block, it seemed a bit weak compared to parry.

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