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Thread: [Suggested Sabo Change]

  1. #1
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    Thumbs up [Suggested Sabo Change]

    Edited to be more clear

    With all the threads complaining of saboteur burst damage, these two issues seem to go to the wayside. However, they are still present and are brought up consistently. Therefore, I'm proposing two possible solutions.

    The issues are with regards to
    1) Continuous mez, charges stacked, detonate, immediate re-mez, repeat
    2) Dispelling charges slower than charges stacked

    My suggestions for each issue
    1) Make stacking charges break mez. Therefore, charges still apply at the same rate and cannot be dispelled faster than being placed, still forcing the player to perform other actions and the saboteurs to maintain their damage. However, this removes the inability of the attacked player to respond, and thus being 'mez-locked'. In my opinion, being beaten by another player is one thing, while being subject to a debilitating strategy that an amateur player can perform is another.
    2) Make charge stacking a 1.5s cooldown OR increase amount of debuffs removed per cleanse to two with a 2s cooldown. Since the vast majority of classes can't cleanse, the saboteurs damage is not affected with them. Those classes that can cleanse, the sabo will still have the advantage because if the player only cleanses, the sabo will still be doing damage, forcing the attackee to perform other actions. Additionally, in my opinion, this would make the saboteur more balanced, as they would be weaker vs. some classes and stronger vs. others.

    I'm positive that you all don't agree with my suggestions. What is your feedback on it (logical reasoning and facts, please)? What ways could it be improved, or would this suggestion completely debilitate the class in an way I haven't foreseen?
    Last edited by Mato; 02-23-2011 at 07:52 PM.

  2. #2
    Soulwalker
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    So let me get this straight.

    The gist of your post is that you should be able to beat saboteur just by spamming cleanse?

    Also: headstart isnt even up and the QQ posts are alrdy here... sight, nerf this nerf that... does this have to turn into WoW forums? While 1v1 is important, it is hardly the focus when it comes to MMO-RPG.

    Signed: a friendly Marksman.

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    I think it sounds like a reasonable idea because of the huge burst that comes, making them do 1 dmg on application or giving them a chance to break cc based on the dmg they will do.

    The only consideration is other classes can CC then wind up a nuke or long cast nuke(cinderblast), it just won't be doing the same level of damage. Tough call.

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    Plane Walker Kelqor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    I'm pretty sure we can agree here that these changes aren't completely debilitating for the class
    Sorry, if you feel the class is powerful, go play it. I know I won't be playing sab, but it doesn't mean I want them nerfed. Therefore, nope.
    Last edited by Kelqor; 02-23-2011 at 04:10 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonedsoul View Post
    So let me get this straight.

    The gist of your post is that you should be able to beat saboteur just by spamming cleanse?

    Also: headstart isnt even up and the QQ posts are alrdy here... sight, nerf this nerf that... does this have to turn into WoW forums? While 1v1 is important, it is hardly the focus when it comes to MMO-RPG.

    Signed: a friendly Marksman.
    Actually, that wasn't the purpose at all. As I said, very few classes even have cleanse so the suggestion is moot for the vast majority of players. Just a retort for the 'sabos are gimped by cleanse' argument. Besides, if all we're doing is spamming cleanse, you're still doing damage and we're not. I'm not seeing eye-to-eye with your post.

    And these suggestions are just that, suggestions, which stem from experiences through the beta events. Is their damage nerfed? No. Is their mobility and pvp nerfed? No. It just changes the mechanics.

    I do ask that before you post, please actually read the suggestion in its entirety.
    Last edited by Mato; 02-23-2011 at 04:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonedsoul View Post
    So let me get this straight.

    The gist of your post is that you should be able to beat saboteur just by spamming cleanse?

    Also: headstart isnt even up and the QQ posts are alrdy here... sight, nerf this nerf that... does this have to turn into WoW forums? While 1v1 is important, it is hardly the focus when it comes to MMO-RPG.

    Signed: a friendly Marksman.
    Uh if its a 1v1 you wont win by spamming cleanse. If its 2v2 its no different than spamming heal against regular damage forms. If the sab is an idiot and not using his other skills or changing targets then he deserves to lose. Let the smarter sabs use better counter arguments.

  7. #7
    Shadowlander Ligero's Avatar
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    A little rock paper scissors and team work goes a long way in the death of a sab!
    Healer

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    Rift Master Brizyrr's Avatar
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    I suggest waiting for the patch notes, then make a topic that is overdone.

  9. #9
    Shadowlander Deacon's Avatar
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    And here is a translation of the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    This was posted in general forums, but just want more exposure.
    This was already posted, so I think shameless repetition makes a point, however unworthy, more important.

    The problem with this is a fundamental flaw in the logic. Saying the sky is green a million times does not magically (or even techno-magically) make it true. Some things are just true and false, right and wrong.

    With all the threads complaining of saboteur burst damage, these two issues are severely overlooked. It needs to be addressed by launch.
    There are a ton of threads already complaining about the saboteur soul, and what I personally think are the parts that make me the maddest in fighting sabs are these two points. Oh, and by the way, I don't believe in pronoun agreement, and somehow 2 things become 1 think in the next sentence.

    The problem with this is that, if these are the only 2 issues with the Saboteur, clearly identifying them in both thread title and launching directly into them would engender greater confidence in your point. As it stands, the thread already sounds like a QQ.

    Stacking charges does 0 damage, thus a CC'd person can have five stacks placed on them, detonate, and immediately CC'd again. That is without a doubt an exploit, especially in 1v1.
    I hate stunlocks, and think that they should be abolished. I also think that if I fervently believe in something, it must undeniably be true.

    The problem with this is multi-fold. Why would that be "without a doubt" an "exploit"? It couldn't POSSIBLY be WAI? The other problem is that the OP does not distinguish between different kinds of CC. Slows? Roots? Stuns? Mezzes? Quite a lot of skills do not break snares or roots, and since the Saboteur soul only has those CCs, that would not be an exploit. It seems that the REAL problem the OP has is in a creative combination of souls that some Sabs use that would add stun and/or mezz CC to his personal arsenal. Note, I don't talk about other soul CC, as the OP clearly defined the problem as 1v1.

    There was a post stating that you can beat saboteur by just cleansing. The vast majority of classes don't have cleanses, but those do have one of three types: removes 1 charge per cast, removes all charges (45s cooldown), removes 1 charge every 3 seconds for 6 seconds (10s cooldown, warden only). GCD for rogues=1s. GCD for everyone else=1.5s. Do the math.
    I want to be able to make the saboteur soul obsolete with any soul I choose. I like to use the term "math" to make me sound smart, even though I refuse to show the theorycrafting myself for fear of either a lack of skills on my part, or showing that the statement is fallacious:

    Removing one charge isn't enough - I want to be able to nullify all saboteur charges as often as I want.

    There are so many problems with this, that I would like to believe that the blatant laziness of blind dislike for a soul would be apparent to anyone and would therefore render the attempted point pointless.

    If you ask people to do the math, show them what kind of slicing and dicing of numbers you want to manipulate. Reducing a portion of sab damage by a cleanse is about as equal as other souls' ability to nullify portions of yet other souls' damage.


    My suggestions for a fix?
    Make stacking charges break CC.
    Make charge stacking a 1.5s cooldown, or increase amount of debuffs removed per cleanse to two with a 2s cooldown.

    I'm pretty sure we can agree here that these changes aren't completely debilitating for the class
    Negate the Saboteur soul's utility and differentiation in the current MMO panoply of class-styles, because "stunlocks are bad, mmkay" and zero-damage skills should be treated the same as damage-inducing skills.

    Oh, and we need to increase the setup time for a Saboteur to do their main-damage component by 50%, because 5seconds of zero damage just isn't enough for the soul - we need an extra 2.5s of ZERO damage to the Sabs for max utility.

    Again, we there are so many issues with this. Regardless of how it gets packaged, the issue here is STILL that the OP doesn't like the fundamental nature of the Sabs as a non-stealth sneaky soul. Stealth works for some souls, but the Sab uses sneakiness instead of stealth. It's both a dangerous proposition as well as a fundamental technique employed in countless combat units throughout human history. The reason it is successful is almost solely based on betting on the target's lack of awareness. Caveat Emptor? Naw... The Saboteur motto is Caveat Insciens.

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  10. #10
    Rift Master Brizyrr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deacon View Post
    And here is a translation of the OP:



    This was already posted, so I think shameless repetition makes a point, however unworthy, more important.

    The problem with this is a fundamental flaw in the logic. Saying the sky is green a million times does not magically (or even techno-magically) make it true. Some things are just true and false, right and wrong.



    There are a ton of threads already complaining about the saboteur soul, and what I personally think are the parts that make me the maddest in fighting sabs are these two points. Oh, and by the way, I don't believe in pronoun agreement, and somehow 2 things become 1 think in the next sentence.

    The problem with this is that, if these are the only 2 issues with the Saboteur, clearly identifying them in both thread title and launching directly into them would engender greater confidence in your point. As it stands, the thread already sounds like a QQ.



    I hate stunlocks, and think that they should be abolished. I also think that if I fervently believe in something, it must undeniably be true.

    The problem with this is multi-fold. Why would that be "without a doubt" an "exploit"? It couldn't POSSIBLY be WAI? The other problem is that the OP does not distinguish between different kinds of CC. Slows? Roots? Stuns? Mezzes? Quite a lot of skills do not break snares or roots, and since the Saboteur soul only has those CCs, that would not be an exploit. It seems that the REAL problem the OP has is in a creative combination of souls that some Sabs use that would add stun and/or mezz CC to his personal arsenal. Note, I don't talk about other soul CC, as the OP clearly defined the problem as 1v1.



    I want to be able to make the saboteur soul obsolete with any soul I choose. I like to use the term "math" to make me sound smart, even though I refuse to show the theorycrafting myself for fear of either a lack of skills on my part, or showing that the statement is fallacious:

    Removing one charge isn't enough - I want to be able to nullify all saboteur charges as often as I want.

    There are so many problems with this, that I would like to believe that the blatant laziness of blind dislike for a soul would be apparent to anyone and would therefore render the attempted point pointless.

    If you ask people to do the math, show them what kind of slicing and dicing of numbers you want to manipulate. Reducing a portion of sab damage by a cleanse is about as equal as other souls' ability to nullify portions of yet other souls' damage.




    Negate the Saboteur soul's utility and differentiation in the current MMO panoply of class-styles, because "stunlocks are bad, mmkay" and zero-damage skills should be treated the same as damage-inducing skills.

    Oh, and we need to increase the setup time for a Saboteur to do their main-damage component by 50%, because 5seconds of zero damage just isn't enough for the soul - we need an extra 2.5s of ZERO damage to the Sabs for max utility.

    Again, we there are so many issues with this. Regardless of how it gets packaged, the issue here is STILL that the OP doesn't like the fundamental nature of the Sabs as a non-stealth sneaky soul. Stealth works for some souls, but the Sab uses sneakiness instead of stealth. It's both a dangerous proposition as well as a fundamental technique employed in countless combat units throughout human history. The reason it is successful is almost solely based on betting on the target's lack of awareness. Caveat Emptor? Naw... The Saboteur motto is Caveat Insciens.
    Well-said and well-worded. Though besides myself, I don't think anyone here will understand what your argument is. You have to dumb it down to the max for people. Especially if you're making fun of them. =)
    Last edited by Brizyrr; 02-23-2011 at 04:50 PM.

  11. #11
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    You know, I was only trying to make a suggestion that seemed reasonable to me. If you disagree, fine. But it is still my suggestion, and I still have the right to post it.

    And yes, even a slug could see sarcasm in the post.

    But unfortunately, Deacon took what I said and turned it into what he/she perceives it to be. Sure, maybe my suggestions weren't the answer, but it was a suggestion. His/her conclusions were far from my thoughts and experiences. I obviously don't want sabos being nerfed to unplayable. I truly like their playstyle. I just feel that in same ways, in both group and 1v1 PvP, certain mechanics are flawed; specifically, mez, charge stack, detonate, immediately mez, repeat.

    And as eloquent as his/her post was, I'm disheartened that people couldn't respond in a more respectful way, as I was completely fair in my first post.

    It is situations like this that discourage people from posting what they truly feel might be helpful change. Forgive me for trying.

  12. #12
    Rift Master Brizyrr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    You know, I was only trying to make a suggestion that seemed reasonable to me. If you disagree, fine. But it is still my suggestion, and I still have the right to post it.

    And yes, even a slug could see sarcasm in the post.

    But unfortunately, Deacon took what I said and turned it into what he/she perceives it to be. Sure, maybe my suggestions weren't the answer, but it was a suggestion. His/her conclusions were far from my thoughts and experiences. I obviously don't want sabos being nerfed to unplayable. I truly like their playstyle. I just feel that in same ways, in both group and 1v1 PvP, certain mechanics are flawed; specifically, mez, charge stack, detonate, immediately mez, repeat.

    And as eloquent as his/her post was, I'm disheartened that people couldn't respond in a more respectful way, as I was completely fair in my first post.

    It is situations like this that discourage people from posting what they truly feel might be helpful change. Forgive me for trying.
    Mato, it's not you. Really, I'm serious. It's the people that came before you that cause all the hate, so then people see you as just another one of those people. In all honesty though, your argument has been repeated into the ground for months now. You've done a better job than most, though.

  13. #13
    Shadowlander Deacon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mato View Post
    You know, I was only trying to make a suggestion that seemed reasonable to me. If you disagree, fine. But it is still my suggestion, and I still have the right to post it.

    And yes, even a slug could see sarcasm in the post.

    But unfortunately, Deacon took what I said and turned it into what he/she perceives it to be. Sure, maybe my suggestions weren't the answer, but it was a suggestion. His/her conclusions were far from my thoughts and experiences. I obviously don't want sabos being nerfed to unplayable. I truly like their playstyle. I just feel that in same ways, in both group and 1v1 PvP, certain mechanics are flawed; specifically, mez, charge stack, detonate, immediately mez, repeat.

    And as eloquent as his/her post was, I'm disheartened that people couldn't respond in a more respectful way, as I was completely fair in my first post.

    It is situations like this that discourage people from posting what they truly feel might be helpful change. Forgive me for trying.
    Sorry, Mato, but this seems incredibly disingenuous. Instead of joining one of the multitude of extant threads on Sabs, you choose to cherry-pick your own issues and start an entirely new thread about them. If my conclusions are that far from your thoughts and playstyle, then please elaborate. Absent any elaboration, I stand by my statement that the way presented, the original post lacked context or any kind of realistic justification. If you can provide a rational justification for charges (that do ZERO damage) to be treated the same as damage-inducing skills vis-a-vis CC, OTHER than "I think stun-locking is BAD", I'd love to hear it.

    I would suggest that if you don't want to be railed against for adding another self-aggrandizing "My issues are so important that they deserve a whole new thread, even though I admit the issues are already addressed elsehwhere" thread, then maybe join those existing voices and not clog up the forums?

    Please note that this is not a personal judgment call on you, Mato; only a rail against your post. Also, it's just not true that I (or anyone else in this thread to date) ever denied that you have a RIGHT to post your opinions. Just by that same token, I have the RIGHT to disagree. It's wholly petty to assume victimized status when someone picks apart your opinions. Please, for the sake of honesty and civil discourse, let's refrain from relying on the "but, I have the RIGHT to..." The community deserves better.

    "Then Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare." - Of Beren and Luthien

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  14. #14
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    Then let me make my original post more clear, as I apparently didn't portray the theme of the thread as I had wanted. And the reason for posting this on these forums, as well as the general forums, was not a means of spreading additional 'nerf sabo' threads, but rather a way of gaining multiple opinions from more than one source.

    The theme I wanted to portray was: Here are two common complaints, here are two possible solutions, what are people's opinions on them (with logical reasoning and facts)

    What I was trying to say was that it has been pointed out in several threads that these issues have been brought up but have been taken somewhat to the wayside because of burst damage threads. These issues, though, are still present. My original post was a suggestion as to possible ways of fixing these. I took prior threads (ie. the 'cleansing' thread) and was stating that their solutions weren't truly solutions. Perhaps I wrote this in less-than-kind words, but unfortunately some recollections of angered moments during Rift beta seeped into my writing. One such recollection was being literally locked in place by a mez, had charges stacked on me, detonated, and then immediately re-mezzed. In my opinion, being a skilled player and outright beating me is one thing. But being attacked without being able to move is something else, and can be accomplished by any amateur player. Mind you, this is not any different than mages, in which a player can be turned into a squirrel and cast Mana Wrench (CC'd to be unable to do anything while taking damage and mana drain). I do admit, I do not like being locked. Is it justified? I think so, but your opinion may vary.

    My suggestions to fix the two issues were 1) add very slight damage to charge addition to break CCs and 2) make charge additions 1.5s cooldown OR make cleanse remove 2 debuffs instead of 1.

    With the first suggestion, people will stop complaining about being locked whilst the saboteur can still do significant damage (ie. if a cleric, for example, dispels every time a sabo adds a charge, they will still lose since the sabo will still be doing damage whilst the cleric is only dispelling themselves). The second suggestion makes it harder for saboteurs to kill certain classes, while still being perfectly potent against the majority of players. In my eyes, the concept of being strong vs. some classes and weak vs. others is how PvP should be balanced. You may see otherwise.

    So back to my central theme: my two suggestions have been laid out. What are your opinions on them?
    Last edited by Mato; 02-23-2011 at 07:34 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default yet again i play sab

    LESS QQ MORE PEW PEW sabs r fine as is if we give them more dmg they will just 1 shot every class if we nerf them they wont do any dmg there fine how they are and as said before if u just charge spam your a noob go play hunter and spam quick shot plz k thx buh bye.

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