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Thread: Elementalist - Thoughts, Concerns, Ideas

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    Champion of Telara Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Default Elementalist - Thoughts, Concerns, Ideas

    I have played a good number of pet classes over the years, with my three favorites being the Magician in EQ, the Conjurer in EQ2, and the Mastermind in CoH.

    Thoughts:

    In Everquest / Everquest 2 different pets had different purposes. Air was melee dps, Earth was tough, Fire was ranged dps. The Mage / Conjurer could choose which pet he needed based upon the situation at hand. Is the Elementalist going to be able to freely switch between pet types depending on the situation, or is he going to be specialized into a single element?

    In CoH, Masterminds could run up to 8 pets simultaneously, with a high degree of control over their six main pets via keybinds. The last two pets were short duration and uncontrolled. A mastermind could also put his pets in bodyguard mode, where they would absorb a large portion of the incoming damage. Are elementalists going to be able to summon large numbers of pets or are they going to be restricted to just one? Are elementalists pets going to have a bodyguard mode?

    Pet controls vary vastly from game to game. Everything from the near absolute control a raiding magician was expected to have over his pet to the pale master in DDO who has zero control over his pet once summoned. How much control are elementalists going to have over their pets? If the degree of control is low, what is the expected role of pets in end game content?

    In PvP, pets are traditionally ignored. Why bother trying to kill the pet when its owner has next to nothing for hit points or defenses. EQ2 tries to mitigate this to a small degree by giving earth pets a taunt, forcing taunted players to target him. This is only a momentary solution, as the player is free to instantly re-target. Since elementalists are described as focusing so heavily upon their pets, is there going to be a mechanism in place to force other players to deal with the pets in PvP?

    With the announcement of souls many possibilities appear to have opened up. One example would be taking buffing as a secondary soul, allowing the elementalist to buff not only his own pet, but his fellow party mamebers. How much does this diversity decrease the power of the primary class? Will the elementalists pets actually be weaker because of the diversity, or will it result in a net increase in dps / survivability?

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    Ascendant Hanlo's Avatar
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    Seeing as the picture of the ele in the class list only shows an earth ele, I am inclined to believe they will only have one permanent pet. If Trion decides to put in a Necromancer, I would think that they would be the ones if anything to have multiple permanent pets. Of course fire and forget pets like the water ele sharks and etc. in eq2 are free for both parties.

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    Champion of Telara Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanlo View Post
    Seeing as the picture of the ele in the class list only shows an earth ele, I am inclined to believe they will only have one permanent pet. If Trion decides to put in a Necromancer, I would think that they would be the ones if anything to have multiple permanent pets. Of course fire and forget pets like the water ele sharks and etc. in eq2 are free for both parties.
    From the Elementalist class description:

    Each elemental has its own strengths and weaknesses, making the Elementalist a flexible and potent force on the field of battle.
    The races of Telara had little experience with the mighty power of the elemental planes like fire, water, and even death.

    Given these two lines. I would say that elementalists not only have a choice in pets available, but with death being counted as an elemental plane, they will include the necromancers .

    One of the questions I had; how much specialization in one element is going to be required to make it really viable. With 51 build points available, it could very well wind up requiring a substantial investment in one element, leaving few build points for a secondary. Following this train of thought, you would end up with Pyromancers, Geomancers, Necromancers, etc. based upon the individuals focus. Following the same train of thought, a lack of focus in a specific element could result in diluted abilities, rendering the elementalist ineffective.
    Last edited by Nightbringer; 06-12-2010 at 09:42 AM.

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    Ascendant Hanlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbringer View Post
    From the Elementalist class description:






    Given these two lines. I would say that elementalists not only have multiple pets available, but with death being counted as an elemental plane, they will include the necromancers .
    That is true. If they do indeed turn out to raise undead minions then I will be sure to dabble into it, assuming I don't have to get abilities from the other planes to get to them.

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    Sword of Telara souper's Avatar
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    You will be able to unlock multiple pets given what we know about the class. It all depends on how much you decide to invest into the talent tree I'd reckon. Hopefully all pets are equal in terms of strength but situational in terms of ability.

    As far as the rest of your questions go, it's hard to tell yet. I'd guess that it's only 1 pet at a time and there would be good incentive to kill it because, as the Elementalist class page says, they are quite weak without it. As for your last question, you only have 51 points to invest between your 3 trees. If you start putting points into a buffing class, you are going to lose out on the ability to gain the top Elementalist abilities. Whether or not that will decrease your diversity or your strength, we don't know yet. That will depend on a lot of factors like which abilities you picked up out of your secondary class tree, which abilities you missed out on by not going a full 51 points into the Elementalist class tree, and whatever other nuances diversification brings with Rift's class system.

    I'm thinking the 51-point Elementalist ability will be hard to miss out on. Maybe it's a giant bat ninja from the death plane.

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    Plane Walker Fayde's Avatar
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    I guess 1 type of pet at a time but it been fairly powerfull.

    My only problem is that it might just be a walking buff and not a real pet as such doing lol damage but giving the master a buff like 40% magic damage or some thing.
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    I have the feeling it's going to be something along the likes of the EQ1 Magician/EQ2 Conjy. And I wonder if the other souls you can get may not be Archetype-dependent, thus giving the option of creating more of a necro type toon by using the second class.

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    Champion of Telara Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Massabik View Post
    I have the feeling it's going to be something along the likes of the EQ1 Magician/EQ2 Conjy. And I wonder if the other souls you can get may not be Archetype-dependent, thus giving the option of creating more of a necro type toon by using the second class.
    By splitting build points between the element of death on the primary soul and taking warlock on the secondary soul. I could see a combination like that. The question again is, how much can be done without diluting your abilities too much.

    I realize they are just beginning to announce classes, but a general format for the class layouts and the tree layouts would go a long ways towards answering these types of questions.

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    Ascendant Hanlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbringer View Post
    By splitting build points between the element of death on the primary soul and taking warlock on the secondary soul. I could see a combination like that. The question again is, how much can be done without diluting your abilities too much.

    I realize they are just beginning to announce classes, but a general format for the class layouts and the tree layouts would go a long ways towards answering these types of questions.
    I could see the elementalist tree doing that.

    One line goes straight up and it summons elemental pets (on the Hanlo-Dreamreaver points part), another goes up and summons pets from the plane of death, another is nukes, etc.

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    Prophet of Telara
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    All good questions and the answers to each are 'we really don't know yet'.

    I know I've taken the easy option but as nice as it is to speculate we're not going to get it right.

    There's many abilities an elementalist could be given to keep the enemies focus on his/her pet, from pet taunts to some sort of memory blur that makes the target forget about the elementalist. That works in PvE but it's going to be much harder to make it work in PvP. I think that is going to require stuns and high pet damage should the enemy target the elementalist. I don't think it would be too overpowering if elementalists had an ability whereby they could force one or two enemies to target their pet. Those enemies would not be able to target the elementalist for a duration unless with aoe spells.

    If you can't make the elementalist hard to kill then you have to make him/her hard to target or find.

    To be fair if I was a warrior and came up against a mage and pet then I'd try and take out the weaker of the two first. It would make sense. It would take some major pet damage or the inability to go after the mage that would make me think twice. Mages would know that and would have abilities to counter it.

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    Ascendant Hanlo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anagain View Post
    All good questions and the answers to each are 'we really don't know yet'.

    I know I've taken the easy option but as nice as it is to speculate we're not going to get it right.

    There's many abilities an elementalist could be given to keep the enemies focus on his/her pet, from pet taunts to some sort of memory blur that makes the target forget about the elementalist. That works in PvE but it's going to be much harder to make it work in PvP. I think that is going to require stuns and high pet damage should the enemy target the elementalist. I don't think it would be too overpowering if elementalists had an ability whereby they could force one or two enemies to target their pet. Those enemies would not be able to target the elementalist for a duration unless with aoe spells.

    If you can't make the elementalist hard to kill then you have to make him/her hard to target or find.

    To be fair if I was a warrior and came up against a mage and pet then I'd try and take out the weaker of the two first. It would make sense. It would take some major pet damage or the inability to go after the mage that would make me think twice. Mages would know that and would have abilities to counter it.

    I see nothing wrong with a Bodyguard spell.
    For example
    Tanking Pets absorb 75% of incoming melee damage and 50% of spell damage to the Elementalist (giving up the majority of your damage for a tank pet in PvP)
    Melee Damage pets absorb 30% of incoming melee damage to the Elementalist and make the summoner evade more.
    Caster pets Absorb 25% of incoming melee damage to the Elementalist and any incoming spells will be redirected towards the pet.

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    Prophet of Telara Eldran's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanlo View Post
    Seeing as the picture of the ele in the class list only shows an earth ele
    More importantly the screenshots of elementalists with earth and fire elementals only shows them with 1 at a time.

    But I wouldn't take that as any indication yet.
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    Prophet of Telara Skythe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanlo View Post
    I could see the elementalist tree doing that.

    One line goes straight up and it summons elemental pets (on the Hanlo-Dreamreaver points part), another goes up and summons pets from the plane of death, another is nukes, etc.
    I really don't think that's how they plan out; their entire concept lies on taping all elements, rather than one like other classes.
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    Telaran Kodie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by souper View Post
    Y... Hopefully all pets are equal in terms of strength but situational in terms of ability.
    This is probably my number one concern about this class. I play a Conjuror in EQ2 and I solo, group in dungeons and raid all using my mage pet. It tanks better than my tank pet, it our dps's the scout pet by double, so really there is no reason to have the other pets offered to the class on your hotbar.

    I would love to see some kind of balance if they are going to have more than one type of pet available so that we can switch it up from time to time, but not gimp ourselves at the same time.

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    Telaran Sithos's Avatar
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    I would much rather see a generic build of sorts, where the Elementalist is able to buff his/her pet regardless of type to say quicken attacks,add damage,heal or what have you. This to me would be much better than having to pick and choose a specific type of pet or two to take to endgame.

    I also agree that pets need to be more than an annoyance in PvP, they need to be actual targets instead of an afterthought. Whether this is through abilities such as snares or stuns(innate to each specific pet or caused by the caster), or whether it's due to the fact that a pet can actually do very good damage remains to be seen. But I hope that the same mistake being played out across many other games in regards to pet classes is not repeated here.

    I have played a myriad of pet classes over the years starting in EQ1 and have fought them in PvP and the same sentiment echoes in these games of "ignore the pet,kill the caster". I would love to see a cry of "Kill the pet,ignore the caster"

    I love the idea that should the pet fall then the Elementalist is much much weaker, to me that (hopefully) means that our pets will be a force to be reckoned with. Lets hope the same holds true in PvP. In most MMO's nowadays the pet deals a certain % of a players total damage, but the majority of the damage comes from the "Master" usually. It'd be interesting to see a pet that does the majority of the damage with the "Master" as support.

    Also should the pet perish mid fight what mechanics are in place to allow the Elementalist to resummon? Can he/she get back in the fray rather quickly? Or would they need to remove themselves from the battle for a short time in order to effectively resummon? I would put forth the idea that upon the initial summon it takes quite a bit of time (after all you are calling forth a denizen from a parallel world to serve you) but upon the pets death the link remains and for a short time it returns to it's plane of origin to reform itself and after that period of time is back and ready to fight again. This would remove the need for the caster to stop all actions once the pet is dead in order to resummon. During the short time between death and rebirth of the pet the caster is free to debuff/nuke or what have you. Keeping in mind that once the pet reappears the Elementalist would still need to spend time rebuffing it to make it effective.

    All in all there is a large variety of ways to make the pet classes viable both in PvP and PvE. The trick is maintaining the balance. A certain pet buff may be considered OP if it increases the pets overall effectiveness by a large margin. Still without much information we are left in a state of "What If". In time as more information comes out we can certainly go from "What If" to "How About". I am very excited and have high hope that finally a company will put forth a "real" pet class.

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