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Thread: STOP!!! with the Nerf bat already

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple
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    Default STOP!!! with the Nerf bat already

    I always think its better to start classes off with less dmg and add more dmg as you go rather then using a nerf bat on classes. Customers like stuff being added to their chars classes not taken away. Just my opinion. Hopefully it all works out in the end.
    Last edited by Vexat; 02-22-2011 at 04:23 PM.

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    Ascendant Dinadass's Avatar
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    I have more faith in Trion being able to determine what is better for overall balance than myself or any other random players posting on the boards. Their changes each beta event have done a pretty good job of convincing me that they know what they're doing. They do listen to posts on the boards but they definitely don't change things solely as a result of them.

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    Rift Disciple Rastamepas's Avatar
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    The game isn't even launched yet. Stop complaining about nerfs. There is a reason why they are called ALPHA notes, people are level 50 raiding and pvping how do you know they are not tweaking the game to be correct before the game launches?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rastamepas View Post
    The game isn't even launched yet. Stop complaining about nerfs. There is a reason why they are called ALPHA notes, people are level 50 raiding and pvping how do you know they are not tweaking the game to be correct before the game launches?
    Ok I will go back and correct my statement but the statement that adding stuff is better then taking away still stands haha.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
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    If you're talking about the "supposed" MM nerfs, I feel like the Pedestal abilities are a perfect way to balance between PvP and PvE. The former (PvP) requires a lot of movement, so nerfing the damage abilities is a good way to control damage in that area of the game. On the other hand, if you have encounters where the player has periods of standing still, the Pedestal will give them a significant damage boost. Buffing the pedestal and nerfing ability damage can be tuned so it has no effect on most PvE encounters where damage matters while bringing the class down to a more manageable level in PvP. Whether this approaches a point of nerfing the class to ineffectiveness in solo PvE is another matter, however.

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    I was just talking about the Champion. His dmg has potentially went down a lot with the changes. Its the difference between getting hit with a real dump truck and getting hit with a tonka truck. They both hurt but the tonka truck won't do much dmg and just make the mob mad. haha

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    Champion of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll03 View Post
    its the wow mentality... they lost because the other guy was OP not because they suck more then a vegas hooker
    Its not the "WoW mentality" its more like the human mentality. What MMO with PvP and a forum wasnt like this? If WoW is the only game you've played thats fine but associating this with one specific game makes you wrong.

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexat View Post
    I was just talking about the Champion. His dmg has potentially went down a lot with the changes. Its the difference between getting hit with a real dump truck and getting hit with a tonka truck. They both hurt but the tonka truck won't do much dmg and just make the mob mad. haha
    And to those of who play several callings / classes, we call it "balance." The fact that Champion damage may have went down is irrelevant. The issue is it's relative damage combined with survivability vis a vis other classes.

    Point being: If you look at what they do to one class / role / soul in a vacuum, you will be disappointed. If you start looking at the above-mentioned issues from a wholistic perspective, you're far less likely to complain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dinadass View Post
    I have more faith in Trion being able to determine what is better for overall balance than myself or any other random players posting on the boards. Their changes each beta event have done a pretty good job of convincing me that they know what they're doing. They do listen to posts on the boards but they definitely don't change things solely as a result of them.
    You show a ridiculously undeserved amount of trust for Trion, borderline ignorance.

    You trust the words of people who come up with the ideas, test them out to see that they work in-game, then wildly swing a nerf bat destroying entire souls because something works better (when used cleverly) than they planned for?

    If they were so adept at knowing what's best for the game and what's going to be balanced, the game wouldn't be so pervaded by these HUGE imbalances. Hell, they even alpha tested it before beta and still every beta was met with wild buffs and nerfs. We even have more of these going into release, wild changes untested anywhere except alpha (what good that's done for us outside of obvious bugfixes).

    Apply some intelligence. Think about something for a minute instead of assuming everyone posting on a forum is completely stupid. A lot of the people who spend a lot of time ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME and becoming experts at EVERYTHING IN IT, not from a theoretical design perspective, tend to know FAR more about the game than the developers. Hell, a lot of people who post here could easily qualify for any of Trion's job postings. Yet your wild presumption is that they're stupid.

    We have plenty of good ideas and smart people around here. We have our fair (abundant) share of morons who want a 3-button invincibility spec, too. It's quite easy to separate the two. Try harder.

    The "style" of balancing present in Rift is what was done in WAR.. with NO success, ever. I don't trust the same techniques for a second. I have absolutely no faith that valid statistical analyses are being done with each change and that the people designing the skills are even playing the game at anything but a mere casual level. I write software. I've done high level math (oh boy, I've done my share). I do all sorts of things that have a measure of "how close" I am to getting something right. So often just a tiny change is all that's needed to make something go from being completely broken to brilliant.

    Let me give you an analogy since you don't seem to understand why wholesale changes don't work in balancing. I hand you a big stick and a pivot. I say "balance this stick on the pivot so that at rest it is stable." What do you do? You measure about the center of gravity by feeling the stick and then place that on the pivot. What next? You let go a little and see how accurate you were. Now what? What's the iterative small changes you make that lead you to the goal? Yes, you VERY SLIGHTLY adjust the location of the stick until it's more and more balanced.

    What is the wholesale nerfbat "change it all up" mentality behind WAR-like balancing? It would be the same as if you picked up the stick, looked at it, thought to yourself "hmm.. maybe I was wrong about that.. the stick fell to the left so I need to move my pivot point to the left by 10 inches to compensate.. so yeah.. that looks about right, now let me put it down.." These kinds of arbitrary jerk reaction type balancing moves will never converge towards a stable balance. It will result in you becoming incredibly frustrated and everyone who's watching who has a ****ing clue about physics will quickly become so frustrated at your stupidity that they'll just leave.

    Welcome to what happened to WAR. Welcome to what is happening in RIFT. Welcome to the beginning of the end, my friend.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 02-22-2011 at 04:38 PM.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander Toxxix's Avatar
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    QQ more please

  11. #11
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by jMerliN View Post
    You show a ridiculously undeserved amount of trust for Trion, borderline ignorance.

    You trust the words of people who come up with the ideas, test them out to see that they work in-game, then wildly swing a nerf bat destroying entire souls because something works better (when used cleverly) than they planned for?

    If they were so adept at knowing what's best for the game and what's going to be balanced, the game wouldn't be so pervaded by these HUGE imbalances. Hell, they even alpha tested it before beta and still every beta was met with wild buffs and nerfs. We even have more of these going into release, wild changes untested anywhere except alpha (what good that's done for us outside of obvious bugfixes).

    Apply some intelligence. Think about something for a minute instead of assuming everyone posting on a forum is completely stupid. A lot of the people who spend a lot of time ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME and becoming experts at EVERYTHING IN IT, not from a theoretical design perspective, tend to know FAR more about the game than the developers. Hell, a lot of people who post here could easily qualify for any of Trion's job postings. Yet your wild presumption is that they're stupid.

    We have plenty of good ideas and smart people around here. We have our fair (abundant) share of morons who want a 3-button invincibility spec, too. It's quite easy to separate the two. Try harder.

    The "style" of balancing present in Rift is what was done in WAR.. with NO success, ever. I don't trust the same techniques for a second. I have absolutely no faith that valid statistical analyses are being done with each change and that the people designing the skills are even playing the game at anything but a mere casual level. I write software. I've done high level math (oh boy, I've done my share). I do all sorts of things that have a measure of "how close" I am to getting something right. So often just a tiny change is all that's needed to make something go from being completely broken to brilliant.

    Let me give you an analogy since you don't seem to understand why wholesale changes don't work in balancing. I hand you a big stick and a pivot. I say "balance this stick on the pivot so that at rest it is stable." What do you do? You measure about the center of gravity by feeling the stick and then place that on the pivot. What next? You let go a little and see how accurate you were. Now what? What's the iterative small changes you make that lead you to the goal? Yes, you VERY SLIGHTLY adjust the location of the stick until it's more and more balanced.

    What is the wholesale nerfbat "change it all up" mentality behind WAR-like balancing? It would be the same as if you picked up the stick, looked at it, thought to yourself "hmm.. maybe I was wrong about that.. the stick fell to the left so I need to move my pivot point to the left by 10 inches to compensate.. so yeah.. that looks about right, now let me put it down.." These kinds of arbitrary jerk reaction type balancing moves will never converge towards a stable balance. It will result in you becoming incredibly frustrated and everyone who's watching who has a ****ing clue about physics will quickly become so frustrated at your stupidity that they'll just leave.

    Welcome to what happened to WAR. Welcome to what is happening in RIFT. Welcome to the beginning of the end, my friend.
    TL;DR: When I make a post supporting a nerf or buff, it's awesome. When someone else does whom I disagree with, it's trash.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexat View Post
    I always think its better to start classes off with less dmg and add more dmg as you go rather then using a nerf bat on classes. Customers like stuff being added to their chars classes not taken away. Just my opinion. Hopefully it all works out in the end.
    The nerfs are taking damage away - before launch - so they can do just that....

  13. #13
    General of Telara luci's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jekyll03 View Post
    its the wow mentality... they lost because the other guy was OP not because they suck more then a vegas hooker
    lol that made my day

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dasty View Post
    TL;DR: When I make a post supporting a nerf or buff, it's awesome. When someone else does whom I disagree with, it's trash.
    If you're going to summarize, at least be accurate. Correct TL;DR:

    Being an employee of Trion does not make you automatically right and not being an employee of Trion does not make you automatically wrong. If you believe anything else, you're probably stupid, borderline mentally dysfunctional.
    Last edited by jMerliN; 02-22-2011 at 04:53 PM.

  15. #15
    Shadowlander Buckeyes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexat View Post
    I always think its better to start classes off with less dmg and add more dmg as you go rather then using a nerf bat on classes. Customers like stuff being added to their chars classes not taken away. Just my opinion. Hopefully it all works out in the end.
    Why? They try to set it so they can get the balance you want. If you try and keep everything low, then it might not be how you want it in PvE/PvP. On the other hand, it's much easier to adjust a small amount of souls than all of the other souls...

    If Cabalist is doing too much damage, it doesn't make much sense to just buff everyone else!

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