+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 24

Thread: Balance Ultimatum: Mages, Saboteurs, Clerics, and Void Knights

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple SinisteRing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    89

    Default Balance Ultimatum: Mages, Saboteurs, Clerics, and Void Knights

    The most popular topic I see on the forum is the following:
    • Mages are too weak/don't deal enough damage for their lack of protection.
    • Saboteurs are too easy to play and deal far too much burst damage.
    • Clerics OP (haven't read too much into this)
    • Void Knights are broken

    I realize that Void Knights ARE/WERE in fact broken and they're being fixed, but that doesn't mean Void Knight/Riftblade still isn't going to be good in PvP. Anyways, let's ignore all of this for the moment.

    First off, I want to establish a few questions: What is Trion balancing around? Are they balancing around level 50 warfront PvP? Open world? Are they balancing around top-tier crystal-perfect play? Mediocre play? Specific specs? What are they aiming for with balance? Do they want us to play public warfronts with good balance? Are they looking to make premades less intimidating with class counters? Are they even balancing around PvP or are they aiming to please the PvE crowd?

    We have no idea how Trion is aiming to balance the game. Until someone links me an official statement stating what they are balancing the game around in better than 1-sentence detail, we have no way of saying "that's OP!" or "that's unfair!" with no knowledge of their goals and intentions for the crowd X (PvE or PvE). All in all, that's one point I'd like to argue before getting into a more deep discussion.

    The Rock-Paper-Scissors Mentality

    I'm currently seeing a rock-paper scissors mentality with most of the souls. For example, let's say there's a 4v4 situation and 1 of each calling is represented. Let's arbitrarily pick one soul for one calling.

    Let's say Void Knight for the warrior. Okay, so have the other teams rogue focus the Void Knight and keep him slowed. Surely you can go ranger and make sure the Void Knight can't range you to death before you take him out? It prevents him from getting on your cleric and mage. So what does the other team do to counter the ranger? They get snares from a mage, such as a pyromancer's burning bonds or a stormcaller's raging storm or a dominator's storm shackle. You snare the enemy clerics/mages and the Void Knight is able to catch up to them and annihilate. But wait, what about the mage on the other team? What if he's actually a chloromancer and casts wild abandon on your cleric? Then the cleric can't be snared or rooted and the enemy Void Knight becomes useless again.

    This is a rock-paper-scissors mentality. In a public mindset, these rules don't apply. People are too caught up thinking "OH MAN, THIS SPEC DEALS BIGGGG NUMBERS" to realize that there's a very simple way to get "counter" these classes. I hate having to use the word counter because that usually implies you must be this calling to counter that calling. However, in RIFT we don't have this issue. Every calling has souls capable of dealing with every situation.

    I know that when I PvP with my guild, we always have a pocket chloromancer ready to Wild Abandon anyone who gets snared and cleanse anyone getting focused by a Saboteur. Assuming everyone figures out the game and begins to understand how the soul system works, people will eventually fall into their roles and figure out "well, if they do that, I should probably switch to this spec. And if that doesn't work out, I should probably go to the other spec and see if that works out better." You have four roles that are interchangeable within a warfront or scenario. If you go into battle as a warrior and gung-ho into all of them, then get bursted from full to nothing, you're probably not going to go in again and get make the same mistake with the same spec. You either switch specs to something where you don't need to be so far in that you get screwed no matter what you do. You have four roles.

    TL;DR Version(ish)

    Counters to Saboteur:

    Overall: Dispel rapes Saboteurs. If you dispel their charges, they become useless. Even though constantly dispelling takes time, you usually only need to dispel once every 3 charges to make sure the spike damage from the detonate doesn't get somebody killed. Clerics/healers should be able to do the rest. Keep an eye on you and your allies debuffs and make sure they aren't getting charged on. The saboteur missile is also pretty easy to spot.

    Warrior: Unfortunately, warriors don't have an easy way out of Saboteur harassment. I've very little experience with warriors, however, and I'm pretty sure there might be something out there capable of dealing with it, but I'm simply not seeing it. However, I don't see this as much of an issue considering warriors have armor capable of reducing the damage to a tickle. I've heard that Saboteurs are capable of reducing armor by quite a bit, but Warriors also usually have the most health out of every other calling on top of that.

    Cleric: This is so simple. Almost every cleric soul has at least one dispel on it. Warden, Purifier, and Sentinel all have one available at 10, 12, and 16 respectively. That's not too many points spent in either one. Again, simple.

    Rogues: Again unable to do much. Rogues are pretty much susceptible to their own antics, so I'd suggest going Saboteur back? Maybe?

    Mages: Archon and Chloromancer both have fantastic ways of dealing with this. There's actually an AoE purge on Archon which is so good it actually takes away a buff from enemies caught in the AoE if you place it right. It's so good for dealing with Saboteurs that you can actually deal with MULTIPLE saboteurs! That's right! You could have 5 saboteurs on the other team tossing charges on your entire team and guess what? A single 2-second cast and 120+ energy as well as 3 global cooldowns of their time go down the drain! It's phenomenal. Try it out. Oh, and Chloromancer has the same cleanse ability as Clerics do.

    All in all, this means that Mages and Clerics are the only ones capable of dealing with Saboteurs, so otherwise you're pretty screwed. Warriors shouldn't have too much trouble surviving through a Saboteur assault and still being effective with just a healer in their pocket. However, I see far too much complaints from Mages and Clerics about Saboteur being overpowered, so that is what this is aimed towards.

    The Complaints

    This cuts down on class diversity and pidgeonholes me into playing a specific spec! I don't like that! - Tough luck. This is how games work if you're aiming to win. If you've ever played any other game, you'll know that counters exist EVERYWHERE and MMO's are no different in the face of win and lose. If you want to win, you switch specs for the situation and you ADAPT. If you do not, you're going to lose and you shouldn't ***** about the game because you're unwilling to do what's necessary to win.

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple Corthalis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    134

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SinisteRing View Post
    Overall: Dispel rapes Saboteurs. If you dispel their charges, they become useless. Even though constantly dispelling takes time, you usually only need to dispel once every 3 charges to make sure the spike damage from the detonate doesn't get somebody killed. Clerics/healers should be able to do the rest. Keep an eye on you and your allies debuffs and make sure they aren't getting charged on. The saboteur missile is also pretty easy to spot.
    Why do sab defenders keep using this stupid argument? It only dispels one charge at a time unless you use big cooldown dispels. Cleric GCD is 1.5, Rogue is 1s. If you have a brain, this means that sabs can put charges faster than it can be dispelled. If you dispel once every 3 charges, you'll be removing 1 charge. There's nothing to stop the sabs from continuing to pile on the charges. The fact that you're even causing the cleric to be spamming dispel already is a big deal because they can't do anything else.

  3. #3
    Champion of Telara
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,358

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Corthalis View Post
    Why do sab defenders keep using this stupid argument? It only dispels one charge at a time unless you use big cooldown dispels. Cleric GCD is 1.5, Rogue is 1s. If you have a brain, this means that sabs can put charges faster than it can be dispelled. If you dispel once every 3 charges, you'll be removing 1 charge. There's nothing to stop the sabs from continuing to pile on the charges. The fact that you're even causing the cleric to be spamming dispel already is a big deal because they can't do anything else.
    clerics are already dispel bots in the warfronts as it is. the only ones with any time to heal are the bards.

  4. #4
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    40

    Default

    I don't see why Sabs get so much criticism. It takes them 6 seconds to set up and detonate. Sure, it's all at once, but it's often only 1/3rd of the other player's health. We haven't even gotten any valor or defensive abilities from pvp souls. How much damage is that gonna do when everyone takes even less damage? 18 seconds to kill someone is pretty pathetic when a rogue can stun you until he kills you 5 seconds later, or a Dom can squirrel you and then annihilate you in the next 5 seconds of +50% casting time.

    I'm more afraid of a good Dom than anything, in pvp.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    4

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Corthalis View Post
    Why do sab defenders keep using this stupid argument? It only dispels one charge at a time unless you use big cooldown dispels. Cleric GCD is 1.5, Rogue is 1s. If you have a brain, this means that sabs can put charges faster than it can be dispelled. If you dispel once every 3 charges, you'll be removing 1 charge. There's nothing to stop the sabs from continuing to pile on the charges. The fact that you're even causing the cleric to be spamming dispel already is a big deal because they can't do anything else.
    Furthermore the cleric dispel removes a curse, disease or poison so your playing Russian Roulette and losing the race at the same time.

  6. #6
    Banned
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    108

    Default

    Clerics OP?! I got extremely confused right there.

  7. #7
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,219

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MenK View Post
    I don't see why Sabs get so much criticism. It takes them 6 seconds to set up and detonate. Sure, it's all at once, but it's often only 1/3rd of the other player's health. We haven't even gotten any valor or defensive abilities from pvp souls. How much damage is that gonna do when everyone takes even less damage? 18 seconds to kill someone is pretty pathetic when a rogue can stun you until he kills you 5 seconds later, or a Dom can squirrel you and then annihilate you in the next 5 seconds of +50% casting time.

    I'm more afraid of a good Dom than anything, in pvp.
    Sabs keep using this argument. Total damage dealt divided by 6 seconds. Ask yourself which other class can consistently do that much DPS in PvP using a simple "rotation". The answer is void knight and RB, both of which are already nerfed and you're next.

  8. #8
    Champion P-51's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Long Island, New York
    Posts
    524

    Default

    And why is this basically a "how do I handle Saboteurs" coment.

    I will just warrior you to death. Rift Surge a Saboteur, done. Rift Surge or Fiery Burst, your done.
    Paly Bubble, your done.

    Mage Domo you to death

    But how do you stop the Rifters and the Sins and the eventual lev 50 Sin that is basically a stun locker doomsday machine???

  9. #9
    Ascendant
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    2,880

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by AceRimmer View Post
    Furthermore the cleric dispel removes a curse, disease or poison so your playing Russian Roulette and losing the race at the same time.
    Even furthermore dispells are an absolutely huge drain on cleric mana.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    42

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SinisteRing View Post
    Dispel rapes Saboteurs.
    Maybe against idiot Sabs who don't realize their charges are being dispelled.

    Anyone who says dispelling is an effective counter to Sabs does NOT know what they're talking about. Please stop parroting this idiocy.

    Also,
    Quote Originally Posted by SinisteRing View Post
    [*]Clerics OP
    Made me giggle.
    Last edited by thrive; 02-21-2011 at 10:24 PM.

  11. #11
    Plane Walker ShimmerSniper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stimuz View Post
    Sabs keep using this argument. Total damage dealt divided by 6 seconds. Ask yourself which other class can consistently do that much DPS in PvP using a simple "rotation". The answer is void knight and RB, both of which are already nerfed and you're next.
    Only because you PVP snarfs think thaty you own the rights to all snarfing that is needed to be required.

    VK and RB are both warriors to begin with. Do you have any idea what that means? Yeah I didn't think you did. That means they have the best armor and high hp.

    The sab? No he doesn't have either of that. The sab isn't freeking terminator like you people think he is. Its just some dude in a trench coat who has a timebomb. Stop trying to turn him into Jubilee or the fifth planeteer.

    (First level mind you..)
    Here is some hard numbers right off the bat using only rogues.

    Sab has 5(9-11)+30=75-85 points of damage

    RS has 5(7-9)+41 76-86 points of damage, Plus it gives you 30% more armor for 60 seconds.

    NB 5(7-9)+56 91-101 points of damage.

    BD has 5(7-9)+42 = 78-87

    Sin has 5(7-9)+52 = 88-97

    Brd has (23*2.5)+59 = approx 116.5 dmg

    MM has 5(7-9)+46 = approx 81-91

    Rng has 5(7-9)+38 = 73-83 dmg + pet damage


    Now get me the same numbers like this when sabs are "OP" only in PVP.

  12. #12
    Champion of Telara
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    1,358

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ShimmerSniper View Post
    Only because you PVP snarfs think thaty you own the rights to all snarfing that is needed to be required.

    VK and RB are both warriors to begin with. Do you have any idea what that means? Yeah I didn't think you did. That means they have the best armor and high hp.

    The sab? No he doesn't have either of that. The sab isn't freeking terminator like you people think he is. Its just some dude in a trench coat who has a timebomb. Stop trying to turn him into Jubilee or the fifth planeteer.

    (First level mind you..)
    Here is some hard numbers right off the bat using only rogues.

    Sab has 5(9-11)+30=75-85 points of damage

    RS has 5(7-9)+41 76-86 points of damage, Plus it gives you 30% more armor for 60 seconds.

    NB 5(7-9)+56 91-101 points of damage.

    BD has 5(7-9)+42 = 78-87

    Sin has 5(7-9)+52 = 88-97

    Brd has (23*2.5)+59 = approx 116.5 dmg

    MM has 5(7-9)+46 = approx 81-91

    Rng has 5(7-9)+38 = 73-83 dmg + pet damage


    Now get me the same numbers like this when sabs are "OP" only in PVP.
    what the **** is this?

  13. #13
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    40

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Stimuz View Post
    Sabs keep using this argument. Total damage dealt divided by 6 seconds. Ask yourself which other class can consistently do that much DPS in PvP using a simple "rotation". The answer is void knight and RB, both of which are already nerfed and you're next.

    Yeah, no. I haven't even played a rogue, but nice try.

    It doesn't matter how simple the rotation is. It matters if they're genuinely hard to stop or beat. Yes, it's a lot of burst damage, even though there's 5 seconds of set up to do it. Solution? Before you get 5 charges on you, do just about anything to stop it. If you can't heal through it or take the damage or kill them first... run away? I can't figure out a single reason why Sab is so hard to beat. I haven't had a single problem with them, although I've seen the same problem as everyone else with VK and RB.

    The argument "Well I said RB and VK were overpowered and they got nerfed, so I'm right about this too" doesn't stand up very well. Unless you can prove that they're overpowered in a level 50 pvp environment, you have no argument.

  14. #14
    Plane Walker ShimmerSniper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    450

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pickled_heretic View Post
    what the **** is this?
    Thats the numbers for the combos.

    The 5(7-9) is the numbers for rogues who start building up charges. The +x is for the damage the finisher will do.

    The challenge is that only the sab can do a 2 button cycle in order to do tons of damage within 6 seconds.

    However the bard, if I got the numbers straight, beats out the sabs ability quite a bit.

    But this is just the first level stuff, because that's what I found in the soul tree calculator. But the sab is pretty clearly in the middle of the "6 second" cycle.

  15. #15
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    142

    Default

    Thankfully it seems they are listening to alpha for balance issues and basing them around people playing at level 50(besides obviously broken/bugged mechanics).

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts