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Thread: The 51-point abilities will never be used

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default The 51-point abilities will never be used

    As it stand right now the 51-point abilities require you to fill out an entire tree. The problem here is that several of the talents are completley undesirable depending on what role you are going for.

    An example is the Champion soul tree. Lets examine the flaws in spending 51-points in order to obtain (yes, a very good ability in itself) Destroyer's Bearing:

    Champion PVE role:

    Don't make me Angry: You won't be crit and live in a high-end PVE environment. This is 2 points wasted.

    Deadly Strike: Loses a lot of its purpose when you get the 51-point ability. You won't be using attack point generating abilities as much (perhaps Disruptive Strike).

    Battle Field Intimidation, Thunderous Kick: While having some interesting uses, likely wouldn't be taken in a max-pve-damage scenario.

    Lingering Wounds: Completely situational and probably very rare that a boss is healing.

    Bloodthirst, Bloodfrenzy: Not really useful in a boss encounter, though more useful than the rest if there are several small adds during the encounter.

    Overrun: Perhaps used to stun an enemy in some encounters, but largely unneeded. Blitz is great mobility which I can see being useful on many encounters, however.

    Total points that are undesirable: 13. If you dropped all these points (Keep 38 for Disruptive Strike), you lose Cornered Beast (a long CD, situation for PVE encounters) and the 51-point ability. Compared to spending 13 points in another tree that could net you several more skills and a greater PVE damage increase, it seems there isn't really incentive to go this far into a tree.

    Again, I'm using the Champion as an example, most other Souls suffer from this sort of syndrome as well.

    Great, I can complain. But lets try to be constructive here, shall we?

    Suggestions:

    1) More talent options. As it stands now, to get a 51-point ability its just spam click all the points into a tree and there you go. There is no decision in this process. There needs to be more options within the tree so the player is required to make a decision for that extra 5% damage or that sweet AE jump ability, etc.

    2) Modify the 2-hand-spec percentage gain to entice a champion to put more points into the tree.

    3) Add more talent similar to 2-hand-spec that would reward spending upto 51 points in a tree (say, for every point above 25 spent in a tree, you gain 1% critical damage).

    Conclusion:

    Until the 31-point mark, I think the trees work fantastically. I love the way Rift made a lot of options between souls, but now is the time to make more options within the souls. Excellent job thus far guys, please keep the awesome development going. IMO, the soul system is a major selling point and should get the utmost attention to keep the players around.

    PS: Two-hand spec (currently broken in beta 7, see [url]http://forums.riftgame.com/showthread.php?74214-testing-the-souls)
    Last edited by Essay; 02-21-2011 at 09:43 PM.

  2. #2
    Plane Touched Rosswise's Avatar
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    The two-hand spec example is flawed, since if you only go 3/5, you can only have up to a 30% increase. Just saying.

    The fact is, not all of the 51-point skills are crap. Still using the Champion as an example, Destroyer's Bearing is actually one of the 51-point skills that most people would agree is worth it. It is true a lot of them on other souls are pretty underwhelming, but that is an easy fix for Trion.

    The real bottom line is that if you want to max out the class, there are tangible benefits there. If you don't see the need, then don't max the class. The last thing we should want is to feel gimped because we did not sink the whole 51 points into the class.
    Last edited by Rosswise; 02-21-2011 at 09:33 PM.
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  3. #3
    Soulwalker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rosswise View Post
    The two-hand spec example is flawed, since if you only go 3/5, you can only have up to a 30% increase. Just saying.

    The fact is, not all of the 51-point skills are crap. Still using the Champion as an example, Destroyer's Bearing is actually one of the 51-point skills that most people would agree is worth it. It is true a lot of them on other souls are pretty underwhelming, but that is an easy fix for Trion.

    The real bottom line is that if you want to max out the class, there are tangible benefits there. If you don't see the need, then don't max the class. The last thing we should want is to feel gimped because we did not sink the whole 51 points into the class.
    Excellent point about the 2-hand-spec. I will remove that argument from the original post. The problem is taking talents that have no impact on your goal as I stated. I agree that there shouldn't be a pigeon hole, but as it stands right now very few people are taking 51-point abilities.

  4. #4
    Plane Touched Rosswise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Essay View Post
    Excellent point about the 2-hand-spec. I will remove that argument from the original post. The problem is taking talents that have no impact on your goal as I stated. I agree that there shouldn't be a pigeon hole, but as it stands right now very few people are taking 51-point abilities.
    That is because of two reasons: One, yes a lot of the 51-point skills are lackluster. Two, in a lot of cases the flexibility of another class outweighs having more PvE/PvP skills of that same tree.

    For your example, you want to make a PvE champion. Why would you waste points on Champion PvP skills? So for your example, the 51-point talent isn't worth it. You would be better off just going with another class or two for the rest of your points.
    Last edited by Rosswise; 02-21-2011 at 09:45 PM.
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  5. #5
    Champion Catskills's Avatar
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    Well perhaps this is the case for a champion, but at least for Nightblade, all the soul slots support NB's role.
    Also, 1,4k over 5 sec AoE doesn't sound that bad for lvl 40.
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  6. #6
    Shield of Telara Bloodless's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Essay View Post
    Champion PVE role:

    Don't make me Angry: You won't be crit and live in a high-end PVE environment. This is 2 points wasted. But in high end pve you will be with a group that will/should help you to survive

    Deadly Strike: Loses a lot of its purpose when you get the 51-point ability. You won't be using attack point generating abilities as much (perhaps Disruptive Strike). As far as I know it stacks with Destroyers Bearing

    Battle Field Intimidation, Thunderous Kick: While having some interesting uses, likely wouldn't be taken in a max-pve-damage scenario. I use it in Iron tomb and Deepstrike mines but end game dungeons I have not been too yet

    Lingering Wounds: Completely situational and probably very rare that a boss is healing. Situational yes but SO AWESOME in pvp

    Bloodthirst, Bloodfrenzy: Not really useful in a boss encounter, though more useful than the rest if there are several small adds during the encounter. I totally agree with you, these 2 and skills like this in all the other souls i do have a problem with. but combined with

    Overrun: Perhaps used to stun an enemy in some encounters, but largely unneeded. Blitz is great mobility which I can see being useful on many encounters, however. Overrun i do use in dungeons especially when the healer gets agro and is some distance from me. Do i need to how useful this is in pvp?

    Total points that are undesirable: 13. If you dropped all these points (Keep 38 for Disruptive Strike), you lose Cornered Beast (a long CD, situation for PVE encounters) and the 51-point ability. Compared to spending 13 points in another tree that could net you several more skills and a greater PVE damage increase, it seems there isn't really incentive to go this far into a tree.

    Again, I'm using the Champion as an example, most other Souls suffer from this sort of syndrome as well. Totally agree, the champ tree do suffer from it but other souls down right completely suffer from it and to top it their 51 point ability sucks for spending 51 points to get it, case and point warlord

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  7. #7
    Champion P-51's Avatar
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    There are many 51 point builds that will be used. You just can not see through the trees

  8. #8
    Telaran
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    suggestion to OP: dont play champion in pve. its obviously a pvp class.

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser Erhnam's Avatar
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    The 51-point abilities will never be used
    Speak about your souls please, I will deffo rolling a 51 points bard

  10. #10
    Telaran
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    Souls I can see going 51 points into include the following...

    Warlock
    Dominator
    Archon
    Paragon
    Reaver
    Warlord
    Riftblade
    Bard

    And those are just off of the top of my head. I think there are probably more that I can't think of right now and I'm too tired to sift through the builder at the moment to look at every class.

    This is a game of give and take, you can give and take across trees or within a single tree... that's where the beauty of this game comes through.
    Deathbagel - Defiant Warrior - <Bionic Jive> - Stonecrest

  11. #11
    Rift Chaser
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    I know I would be getting the 51 pts from champion.

  12. #12
    Champion GoldenAxe's Avatar
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    I have builds that are made to use the 51 point abilities for Bard and Pyromancer.

    It's one thing to suggest that some of the 51 point abilities aren't as compelling as others, but there are some great 51 point abilities out there.

    One reason that the 51 point abilities of some souls aren't going to be as popular has less to do with the abilities themselves and more to do with the great options available in other soul trees.

    I doubt I'll ever get the 51 point paladin or reaver abilities because my build runs better by going up both trees to the 30sh point abilities. There are many examples of this, but ultimately the 51 point abilities in those souls are strong. They just don't fit my reason for choosing those souls.

    Someone out there will find a way to make them work.

  13. #13
    Soulwalker
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    If you really, really like a soul and its playstyle / fluff / whatever, I don't see anything wrong with going 51 point in it, this is a game of choices, it's not always about min-maxing the "optimal" build. Heck, I'd roll some daft builds simply to have a laugh with it. But if someone has decided they want to be knon for being the greatest and most feared Necromancer in Telara, it would make sense they speciailse in that role.

  14. #14
    Shadowlander
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    Currently the reason warriors will be getting the 51 pointers isn't because they are so good you live with the useless talents it's that they ****ed up synergi and really whats the point of specing into 2 souls. Yes beastmaster is currently the only dps soul not based on the fact that it only scales with one damage type (but really it's just gonna be for the pet or perhaps some bleeds for pve).
    I can't speak for other callings but when it comes to warrior dps it's not a matter of what do you miss since they ruined that a long time ago.
    Last edited by Zerados; 02-22-2011 at 05:22 AM.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker
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    51 point Sab ... omg are you kidding me.

    I just hit you with 6 blast charges and dropped half your health ... (2 seconds later) I just did it again.

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