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Thread: WTB More than 3 roles

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    Rift Disciple Xilith's Avatar
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    Default WTB More than 3 roles

    Remember back in EQ, when you'd make a group - you'd get a tank, and a healer, and then instead of piling 3 random DPS into the group, you'd have to make sure you had other bases covered. Can someone snare, or slow, or provide haste? Do we have a dedicated CC class, or at least some casters that can root the mobs? If not, better have a better slow in the group. Can someone stun - if not those healer mobs are going to be rough.

    Seems like we've lost a lot of uniqueness, and crammed everything into just three boxes these days, and I'd like to see that change in the next wave of MMOs. Having more roles means comparing classes on more than just sheer heal / dps output, and while it makes group construction more time consuming, I'd argue it makes it more interesting as well.

    I'd also like to CC come back as a role or sub-role, and not filler for DPS classes.

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    Prophet of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilith View Post
    Remember back in EQ, when you'd make a group - you'd get a tank, and a healer, and then instead of piling 3 random DPS into the group, you'd have to make sure you had other bases covered. Can someone snare, or slow, or provide haste? Do we have a dedicated CC class, or at least some casters that can root the mobs? If not, better have a better slow in the group. Can someone stun - if not those healer mobs are going to be rough.

    Seems like we've lost a lot of uniqueness, and crammed everything into just three boxes these days, and I'd like to see that change in the next wave of MMOs. Having more roles means comparing classes on more than just sheer heal / dps output, and while it makes group construction more time consuming, I'd argue it makes it more interesting as well.

    I'd also like to CC come back as a role or sub-role, and not filler for DPS classes.
    I actually think I prefer a number of classes being able to do the same things so that there's an option. In far too many games I have seen some classes be loved far more than others. Take bards as an example in EQ2. There came a time when everyone wanted a bard. There could be a dozen other people lfg but a group wanted a bard so no one else got a look in.

    There should be other options rather than have one class being able to do something and others being ousted because the group wants the 'bard'. Making one class more a prospect than any other should be avoided at all costs.

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    Champion MuckyPup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilith View Post
    Remember back in EQ, when you'd make a group - you'd get a tank, and a healer, and then instead of piling 3 random DPS into the group, you'd have to make sure you had other bases covered. Can someone snare, or slow, or provide haste? Do we have a dedicated CC class, or at least some casters that can root the mobs? If not, better have a better slow in the group. Can someone stun - if not those healer mobs are going to be rough.

    Seems like we've lost a lot of uniqueness, and crammed everything into just three boxes these days, and I'd like to see that change in the next wave of MMOs. Having more roles means comparing classes on more than just sheer heal / dps output, and while it makes group construction more time consuming, I'd argue it makes it more interesting as well.

    I'd also like to CC come back as a role or sub-role, and not filler for DPS classes.
    There are only 3 roles. Tank, Healing, and DPS. I guess I don't know what you want....A class that only CC's?

    My opinion is that there is already too much CC out there. A class per faction that can mezmerise, stun or root is fine for me. Much more than that, and you end up like every other game.

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    Shield of Telara Krassus's Avatar
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    I havent see a pure CC / Haste class since the EQ chanter which I agree would be awesome. The idea of a class that controls everything to do with the mind in some limited capability is great and missed.

    Having tank, heal and 3-5 dps depending on the game is honestly boring but MMO's are getting watered down. They dont want to have groups and raid in a choke hold waiting for an hour for a Enc class to log in. Nowadays the hardest class to find is tanks heh.

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    Sword of Telara souper's Avatar
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    Ultimately, every combat role is broken down into tanking, damage, and support. CC falls into the support category and it's not like games don't have it anymore. While it's true that the "pure CC" class isn't as common anymore, games have been increasing the utility of other classes by spreading around the buffs and CC. While I love the support CC role, I think the general MMO community prefers this as it leads to greater hybridization.

    Plus, I'm guessing with the soul system you'll be able to define your role better by picking some of your own abilities (assuming that's what it does.) I think that's a good way to give players the choice to fill out their chosen role more intensely if they want.

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    Rift Disciple Phoenix_79's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilith View Post
    Remember back in EQ, when you'd make a group - you'd get a tank, and a healer, and then instead of piling 3 random DPS into the group, you'd have to make sure you had other bases covered. Can someone snare, or slow, or provide haste? Do we have a dedicated CC class, or at least some casters that can root the mobs? If not, better have a better slow in the group. Can someone stun - if not those healer mobs are going to be rough.

    Seems like we've lost a lot of uniqueness, and crammed everything into just three boxes these days, and I'd like to see that change in the next wave of MMOs. Having more roles means comparing classes on more than just sheer heal / dps output, and while it makes group construction more time consuming, I'd argue it makes it more interesting as well.

    I'd also like to CC come back as a role or sub-role, and not filler for DPS classes.
    Yeah, this ^^^^^^^^^
    I also miss the extra utility a particular class would provide. It makes the classes more unique and useful giving them that one talent that that class can do. A bard for run speed/mezzes, a chanter for regen/mezzes, a handful of classes with snare or root, and lets not forget about having a pacy to throw out there prior to the pull

    Not to bang on the poster a couple posts up but giving other classes these things OTHER than one class just waters down the system and I personally have seen enough watered down over the last several years. I would hate to see it get any worse. I say keep on waiting until you get the bard for buffs if you want them so badly. In EQ2, if bards didn't have all the buffs what then would they have to bring to the table? Weak dps and debuffs that nobody would want to pick up for small scale groups.

    A goofy example
    class 1 : "Hey! Look at what I can do" *casts a pretty spell that raises class 2's dead grandmother from the earth*
    class 2: "Oh I've seen that one before. You must be a class1! But can you do this? *does a triple backflip tossing blades into a tree on top of each other*
    class 3 notices as he walks by: "That some nice work class2. Let me see you carry this shield, plate armor and my long sword while you do that."
    class 4 the hybrid notices the show: "Hey you three check this out!" *Raises grandma while doing a triple backflip and blocks a sucker punch from class2*

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    Quote Originally Posted by MuckyPup View Post
    There are only 3 roles. Tank, Healing, and DPS. I guess I don't know what you want....A class that only CC's?

    My opinion is that there is already too much CC out there. A class per faction that can mezmerise, stun or root is fine for me. Much more than that, and you end up like every other game.
    No, but a class that might have inferior DPS but has excellent CC abilities has a role to play. Reducing group content to tank, heal the tank and kill every mob as fast as possible for me isn't fun content. Increase the challenge of encounters so those tactics either don't work at all or at least would involve a large amount of risk each pull.

    I like the idea of utility becoming more useful (but not to the point where say a bard is essential to a group, making groups MORE restricted about how they can comprise), let people shape their groups with classes offering different roles rather than it being reduced to tanking and spanking.

    I'd like to see a group with 1 tank, 1 healer no CC and only pure dps classes be very fast to clear stuff but also be full of deaths, swap in a cc, and a dps with minor healing ability and life becomes much easier. Even if each individual kill is slower, the rate of killing 100 mobs would probably increase. Let people decide how to go about their grouping, and make alternative groups viable.

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    Ascendant Kula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by souper View Post
    Ultimately, every combat role is broken down into tanking, damage, and support. CC falls into the support category and it's not like games don't have it anymore. While it's true that the "pure CC" class isn't as common anymore, games have been increasing the utility of other classes by spreading around the buffs and CC. While I love the support CC role, I think the general MMO community prefers this as it leads to greater hybridization.
    Why does everybody believe they know what the 'general MMO community' wants? Is it the "WOW has it so it must be what everybody demands" syndrome? The biggest thing WOW had to begin with was a NAME. I am not convinced that had any other NAME been behind WOW that it would have been successful. Thus, I reject the notion that WOW should dictate all future MMOs success/failure.

    Oh, btw I'm all for specialization and againsat watered-down everyone-does-everything classes.

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    Sword of Telara souper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kula View Post
    Why does everybody believe they know what the 'general MMO community' wants? Is it the "WOW has it so it must be what everybody demands" syndrome? The biggest thing WOW had to begin with was a NAME. I am not convinced that had any other NAME been behind WOW that it would have been successful. Thus, I reject the notion that WOW should dictate all future MMOs success/failure.

    Oh, btw I'm all for specialization and againsat watered-down everyone-does-everything classes.
    Calm down hot-head. Reject whatever notions you want but no one brought up WoW and your weird obsession with it has nothing to do with this thread or my post. The reason I claim the "general MMO community" prefers there not being a sole CC class is because of the sheer amount of threads/posts I see online where people ask for more diversity and hybridization in their classes so they aren't relegated to a single role or reliant on a single class. It doesn't have to mean anything is "watered-down", it can just mean more flexibility in how an individual or group approaches an encounter if the classes are balanced well. Spreading out CC and buffs/debuffs among multiple classes helps do so as everyone can bring something unique to the encounter aside from "pure" damage, healing, tanking, or even CC, even if they are focused in one of those roles.

    Plus, I'm not against Rift having a support CC role if they allow us to build a class like that.

  10. #10
    Ascendant Kula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by souper View Post
    Calm down hot-head. Reject whatever notions you want but no one brought up WoW and your weird obsession with it has nothing to do with this thread or my post. The reason I claim the "general MMO community" prefers there not being a sole CC class is because of the sheer amount of threads/posts I see online where people ask for more diversity and hybridization in their classes so they aren't relegated to a single role or reliant on a single class. It doesn't have to mean anything is "watered-down", it can just mean more flexibility in how an individual or group approaches an encounter if the classes are balanced well. Spreading out CC and buffs/debuffs among multiple classes helps do so as everyone can bring something unique to the encounter aside from "pure" damage, healing, tanking, or even CC, even if they are focused in one of those roles.

    Plus, I'm not against Rift having a support CC role if they allow us to build a class like that.
    I'm not really hot-headed, I just get tired of everyone claiming to know what is wanted.

    How are classes not watered-down if everybody can do more than 1 or 2 things? How is that 'balanced' as opposed to homogenized? Please explain how it's not a lack of differentiation if any 5 people can group up and do any group encounter?

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    Ascendant Slyde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xilith View Post
    Remember back in EQ, when you'd make a group - you'd get a tank, and a healer, and then instead of piling 3 random DPS into the group, you'd have to make sure you had other bases covered. Can someone snare, or slow, or provide haste? Do we have a dedicated CC class, or at least some casters that can root the mobs? If not, better have a better slow in the group. Can someone stun - if not those healer mobs are going to be rough.

    Seems like we've lost a lot of uniqueness, and crammed everything into just three boxes these days, and I'd like to see that change in the next wave of MMOs. Having more roles means comparing classes on more than just sheer heal / dps output, and while it makes group construction more time consuming, I'd argue it makes it more interesting as well.

    I'd also like to CC come back as a role or sub-role, and not filler for DPS classes.
    I agree 100%

    I like classes to have specific roles which they excel at.

    Some overlap between classes is a good thing, but only one should be the best at certain things. For example, maybe 2-3 classes can have a crowd control ability, but one class should be better at it, or at least do it differently than the others.

    +100 points to Xilith for the proper use of 'than' in the thread title. Most forum posters would've incorrectly used 'then'.
    (one of my pet peeves...)
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    If the Lord of the Rings movie trilogy was made by today's MMO designers, the first 8 hours would be condensed into 30 minutes, and the last hour would be stretched out over 8.5 hours. It would be all about 'The Ending' and not about 'The Journey'.

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    Sword of Telara souper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kula View Post
    I'm not really hot-headed, I just get tired of everyone claiming to know what is wanted.

    How are classes not watered-down if everybody can do more than 1 or 2 things? How is that 'balanced' as opposed to homogenized? Please explain how it's not a lack of differentiation if any 5 people can group up and do any group encounter?
    Look, if you want to argue that splitting up the pure CC class and the pure Buff class and spreading CC and buffs throughout the rest of the classes is "homogenization" than fine. It doesn't mean the tank is any less of a tank or the healer is any less of a healer or the damage dealer is any less of a damage dealer. It just means they have increased utility to bring to an encounter and more flexibility depending on what is asked of them. It doesn't mean they should all tank/heal/damage equally just that if the encounter needs a lot of roots that the Blade Dancer provides than you can at least attempt it with the slows that the Reaver provides. They are still both completely different roles (damage and tank) but as a team you at least have a little leeway with whom you bring even if it is a second string choice.

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    Ascendant Kula's Avatar
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    32 classes. Even if you break it down to 16 Defiant and 16 Guardian (which I don't think has been confirmed?) that's alot of classes. If all any of them do is tank/DPS/heal they can'y be all that unique and be balanced.

    Maybe my imagination is lacking but if 5 of each side are healers how can they possibly each heal in a completely different way? The gameplay will be the same for each player just different timers & frequency. They will all be looking at the same HP meters and pressing __ button. So maybe one has a heal-over-time, one has small insta-heals, one has large insta heals on cooldown, one absorbs heals into themselves, and the last has long cooldown transfers of damage to the enemy. The only thing you've really changed is how frequently they hit __ button. And that is how far my imagination goes. I can't think of a sixth way to heal.
    Having played a healer I think it's more fun to have more than a single healing choice in my bag of tricks than to have 1 type of heal and then some buffs.

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    Champion of Telara Elth's Avatar
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    Its funny, sad and sometimes good to read these threads and I am of mixed opinions on the matter in general. You cannot really have a solid opinion when nothing is known about the mechanics of the game and what the intention of the game has in store for us.

    I personally have always been a huge fan of the utility rogue over the super poison wielding assassins or stun locking button mashers of the current generation of MMO's, but that is not to say that I do not want to see the other type included.
    How do we as the community want the future of our games to go? Is creating more and more specialist classes the direction we take? or would it be better to simplify the classes while at the same time grant them a finely tuned skill system and let the diversity come that way?

    We as a community also need to work together instead of against each other when determining our future games. When we consider the diversity or lack thereof, we need to consider the various play style of each player so that we can create a balanced structure. By having a utility class that specializes in crowd control for Raids or Dungeons, we also need to consider the effects and outcomes this can have in unbalancing PvP or solo play. We don't want to see a utility class that can lock down everyone in sight in PvP so we must consider the diminishing returns on their control in some form or another. A class that seems uber to PvP may be Tardy in PvE, how can we ensure that the balance is maintained?

    Sometimes I think we would do better to have just the big four: Fighter, Mage, Cleric, Thief.
    Each of the big four would have a specific pool of abilities and skills to choose from, each could have a variety of abilities and utilities that would make them unique and specialized. Some of the abilities could be in several pools, some might be purely individual. And some abilities could be found while questing, raiding or player killing that are also unique in their own right.

    Then again, we could continue to separate everything and detail it further and further, but even if we do, people will always revert things back to the simplest form in order to make it easier to justify to themselves.

    Before I get too sidetracked I must return to the original topic by asking how can we improve a game by adding more than 3 roles? What are these other roles that we crave? Do we even need tanks and healers or can we somehow evolve scripting to the point that we no longer need it? I know if I were a monster I wouldn't be attacking the bloke with the plate mail, shield and big sword, I would be attacking the easiest thing to kill in the fastest way possible. Can Scripting and AI get to the point where a Mob or a Boss can evaluate and prioritize his kill order? Then we as gamers would need to adapt and organize new strategies and maybe we will need more roles or maybe we wont even need roles.

    I do not have the answer, I only have speculation that has come from my experience. My experience may be more or less than others but that is neither here nor there. All I know is that all play styles must be considered lest we alienate one or another, nothing about gaming is two dimensional.

    Food for thought

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    Shield of Telara Krassus's Avatar
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    OMG IZ YOU MAD BRAH !?!??

    Quick someone post the ideal raid groups and assignments !!!

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