+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Thought I would ask this Question Here

  1. #1
    Plane Walker Maxxy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Florida Keys
    Posts
    413

    Default Thought I would ask this Question Here

    If they are going to be having what looks to be quite a few multiple classes. Then the add-ons of sub-classes. How is balancing done when the class structure is set up this way? I have no idea myself, and was curious, since balance issues always come up, along with nerfs in all the games I have played.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Ascendant Kalbuir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    2,265

    Default

    Balance is tricky, I think that much was learned from SWG-Pre CU. But well even with set classes balance is a lie to be honest. And the obsession and jealosy of players makes it so that development teams spend to much time tweaking classes then creating new stuff.

    Balancing a class on paper is 180 degree's from balancing it in practise, players will utilize a class in different ways than developers thought of. Players play with combo's of other players that development usually didn't foresee during development. I am not saying there shouldn't be balance but making every class equally usefull is highly subjective.

    I think the focus should be that each class (and or subclass) should do something that other cannot and excel in that area of experteese. To take healers as a example, healer 1 would use wards and reactives, healer two would use hots, healer 3 would use lifetaps, healer 4 would use straight heals.

    All of these shouldn't heal exactly the same amounts but based on their area of expertise they should play with the same performance. Now this is highly subjected to skill and playstyle but well that's an issue we will never fix.

    I rather play a slightly unbalanced game than one where we end up having class tweaks every two weeks.

    Regards,
    Kalbuir

  3. #3
    Sword of Telara souper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    831

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maxxy View Post
    If they are going to be having what looks to be quite a few multiple classes. Then the add-ons of sub-classes. How is balancing done when the class structure is set up this way? I have no idea myself, and was curious, since balance issues always come up, along with nerfs in all the games I have played.

    Thanks
    Sub-classes are out from what we know. Now it's 25+ classes + soul system.

    How are they gonna balance all that? Same way all developers do: poorly. But, the idea is to continue to work towards balance until they are satisfied with how things are operating. It'll never be perfect but as long as people are having fun it won't cause a large commotion.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Kalbuir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    2,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by souper View Post
    Sub-classes are out from what we know. Now it's 25+ classes + soul system.

    How are they gonna balance all that? Same way all developers do: poorly. But, the idea is to continue to work towards balance until they are satisfied with how things are operating. It'll never be perfect but as long as people are having fun it won't cause a large commotion.
    There really has to be a point where they have just stop messing with balance if they don't have it right after a quarter of a year in my oppinion they never are going to. I am not talking about nerfs but constantly changing game mechanics for balance purposes is a bad point for me.

    Regards,
    Kalbuir

  5. #5
    Sword of Telara souper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    831

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalbuir View Post
    There really has to be a point where they have just stop messing with balance if they don't have it right after a quarter of a year in my oppinion they never are going to. I am not talking about nerfs but constantly changing game mechanics for balance purposes is a bad point for me.

    Regards,
    Kalbuir
    The thing about balance is that it's hard to measure all the inputs going into a character at any given time. There are levels, and stats, and gear, and talent builds, and AA, and PvP, PvE, bosses, raiding, etc. etc. In one situation you are strong in another you are weak. And with updates adding new content they're forced back into the balancing treadmill every few months. It's gotta be a royal pain.

    I agree with your sentiment that they should watch out for the big modifications to core mechanics since that tends to put players off. I wouldn't limit their window for changes though. If it's gotta change it's gotta change but I'd be hopeful they'd catch potential problems early on. That's why they need a good beta.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Kalbuir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Amsterdam
    Posts
    2,265

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by souper View Post
    The thing about balance is that it's hard to measure all the inputs going into a character at any given time. There are levels, and stats, and gear, and talent builds, and AA, and PvP, PvE, bosses, raiding, etc. etc. In one situation you are strong in another you are weak. And with updates adding new content they're forced back into the balancing treadmill every few months. It's gotta be a royal pain.

    I agree with your sentiment that they should watch out for the big modifications to core mechanics since that tends to put players off. I wouldn't limit their window for changes though. If it's gotta change it's gotta change but I'd be hopeful they'd catch potential problems early on. That's why they need a good beta.
    I do agree with your "If its gotta change it has to be changed" argument, I would just hope it would happen after expansion, AA updates, level encreases and such because it is needed. Not because they came around to balancing things that have been going on for 4 months already in the same setup as it was.

    Or even worse fix things that are not broken.

    Regards,
    Kalbuir

  7. #7
    Ascendant Liziana's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    England
    Posts
    2,415

    Default

    As long as they don't "fix" it as often as WoW does...so exasperating to go back to the game after a few months break to find you've got to totally respec your character before you can do anything.

    I tend to think that class balancing is a mug's game....you're into a no-win situation. Unfortunately... for a game with PvP, it's a road that has to be taken.
    If you say plz instead of please, I say no because it's shorter than yes.

  8. #8
    Champion of Telara Zikkar's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Plant City, Fl
    Posts
    1,243

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalbuir View Post
    There really has to be a point where they have just stop messing with balance if they don't have it right after a quarter of a year in my oppinion they never are going to. I am not talking about nerfs but constantly changing game mechanics for balance purposes is a bad point for me.

    Regards,
    Kalbuir
    Shoot balancing is what keeps Devs employed

    -Soon A developer term that is never as "soon" as you want it to be.

  9. #9
    Champion
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    519

    Default

    If a class is so much worse than another of the same archetype that it is hopelessly redundant, ie a dps class that puts out say 60% of the top dps class and offers little extra in the way of utility, it would need to be fixed pretty fast. Asking people to wait for the next expansion or AA update will pretty much mean you'll have only a handful of classes playing the "gimp" class.

    I agree with trying to get things perfectly matched is a futile process, I'd hope to see some sort of parity across the various archetypes. To know your class is seriously underperforming and wont change for the next year is a pretty bad situation to be in.

    Utility has to be COMBAT UTILITY as well, otherwise you are consigning a class to be a buff bot, which can easily be replaced by someone on a second box rebuffing when needed.

    I hope to see all classes of an archetype perform similarly in their primary role, maybe with different methods but the potential dps of all dps classes should be roughly equal. For example, making an "alpha dps" class is the fastest way to make other classes redundant.

  10. #10
    Rift Chaser Matt-Kire's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Illinois
    Posts
    356

    Default

    I just play my class...


    If it's tough... then so be it...

    I'd rather be unique and enjoy playing my class... then have to compete to be the "best"

    It's a game...

    Fantasy at that...

    ;)

  11. #11
    Shadowlander V4LENWOOD's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Denver, CO
    Posts
    29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt-Kire View Post
    I just play my class...


    If it's tough... then so be it...

    I'd rather be unique and enjoy playing my class... then have to compete to be the "best"

    It's a game...

    Fantasy at that...

    ;)
    I'd rather play a gimped class than the FLOTM....


    oooo do I hate playing the FLOTM



    I just hate it when there is one class that is attracting all the attention.
    V4LENWOOD

  12. #12
    Champion of Telara g0kuenuan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Romania
    Posts
    1,216

    Default

    -the team has a huge MMO experience
    -the betas will help balancing (if they last more than just 2-3 days each)
    -small nerfs will be added in small patches (like every big MMO)

    with this said, just choose and play the class system that suits you better

  13. #13
    RIFT Fan Site Operator Raive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    2,918

    Default

    As posted above, class balance can only be achieved through practice, not whats posted on the boards or written on paper. Its a very complicated task when balancing to different playstyles, kinds of content, usefulness, and keeping the class fun all at the sametime. Balancei s never truly achieved as the players are the ones who deem what is "useful" and then mentality surrounding said class becomes clouded that "this makes the class unfun".

    #retiredBear #teamBBCs #puffForeverMad

  14. #14
    Champion of Telara Elth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    1,131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalbuir View Post
    There really has to be a point where they have just stop messing with balance if they don't have it right after a quarter of a year in my oppinion they never are going to. I am not talking about nerfs but constantly changing game mechanics for balance purposes is a bad point for me.

    Regards,
    Kalbuir
    I agree with you here. Class balance always seems to be the bugbear to first show his face in any MMo. Balance is a lie, true balance would be playing one class that has everything, but even then people would find a way to accuse someone of cheating because their skill is lacking.

  15. #15
    Plane Walker Maxxy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Florida Keys
    Posts
    413

    Default

    Thanks guys. There was so many listed, it looked like it would be difficult for the developers to do it. I am going to assume they will do their best, but nothing is going to be perfect. Which is really like most of my games.

    "Do not think of knocking out another person's brains because he differs in opinion from you. It would be as rational to knock yourself on the head because you differ from yourself ten years ago."
    - Horace Mann (1796 - 1859)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts