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Thread: I would like to see a BloodMage type class

  1. #1
    Doc
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    Default I would like to see a BloodMage type class

    VG by far had some of the most inovative healers in the MMO market from the Disciple to the Blood mage ( i would even say that shaman was way different than any other mmo).

    The blood mage was a pure caster healer. He could initiate blood pact on mobs which affected what skills he could use on them some things would stack extra blood pact others would take some stacks off. Blood pact also would build over time if in that stance. You had 3 stances Damage stance, neutral, and healing stance

    So your heals would be affected by both stance and pact. Now to the fun mechanic

    You did have the basic trade X mana for X heal amount, but also you could heal your defensive target and party with damage delt. You could do a long cast that would take X damage and turn it into health. Now the healing stance greatly increased this so it was viable to stay in healing stance to heal. The ability to damage/ heal and the need to balance both for mana purposes was great. Let your stacks build and heal or dps a better one, or blow low stack amounts for faster healing/ quick dps.

    I would appreciate it if someone who played the BM class extensively would come along and add to this post with your experiences, and how it was like to play at the top end of the game. I will amend or add info to this post as well when posts are made, or more comes to me.

    This was such a fun class/ idea I hope healing in Rift will be as diverse, and fun.

    Better explanation of the class By:Kalbuir

    Background Blood Mage
    Blood Mages can more or less be interpeted into two ways, one way is the way Dragon Age did it, like dark magic mages who apply blood rituals and dark magic to run havoc through the enemy lines. In dragon age the Blood Mage is a limited healer. Or a little bit different, in VG Blood Mages where still quite evil and did have quite a few dark rituals but they where also the crazy scientist types which made use of body parts and blood to fuel they strenghts and heal their allies.

    In my personal oppinion the VG approach leaves much more open to development and creates a much more dynamic class.

    Focus of class
    The Blood Mage in vanguard belongs to the Healer Archtype. Now in VG the Blood Mages was a HEALER, I know certain people parsed high and saw themselves as DPS but (again) in my oppinion this was not the focus of the class.

    Why is it so much fun?
    The fun part of the Blood Mage was that you would heal with your damage, now again it was not the damage that mattered for me it was the fact that the damage I did was converted into health for my ally.

    The fact that you had to have a offensive target to heal from, take into account their defense and debuffs and current health when healing added a great challenge to play a Blood Mage in a good capacity.

    It was easy to play a Blood Mage, but it was not a class you could master as easily as others. The things you could do with a Blood Mage if you had practise where amazing and I might very well say overpowered but this was because of bad tweaking not bad design.

    I want to stress again that Blood Mage for me was not about damage, If the Blood Mage class would do a small amount of damage which would result in good amount heals then I would personally be VERY VERY VERY happy. Healers that do large amounts of damage while healing need to be prevented in my oppinion.The big flaw in Vanguard was that a Blood Mage could parse close to 8k dps when I left Vanguard and still had plenty of options on improving.

    Because the damage was so high and the confention (dmg to heal) was so poorly it resulted in hugely overpowered heals. If this was tweaked properly it would have resulted in a better balanced class which was just as fun to play.

    Game Mechanics

    Symbiotes
    One of the class defining buffs of the Blood Mage, the BMG would craft little creatures (symbiotes) from various body parts (heart, brain, muscle, stomach) and was able to infuse them into the bodies of enemies or allies. They both surved as utility as buffs and well in certain design idea's they could also have been applied as offensive spells. But this never made it in-game.

    The great thing about this is that each enemy or ally could only be effected by one symbiote, so (given that the symbiotes where balanced, which they where not in VG) every class and player needs to determine for themselves which symbiote gives them most gain. Taking into account playstyle, gear and abilities.

    Great examples of Symbiotes are:
    - Damage buff for a set amount of time.
    - Grants ability with a Damage buff for a short period of time on long cooldown.
    - Grants an ability that gives the ally a heal that he can use on any other ally or himself.
    - A heal over time.
    - A mana regen spell.

    The idea's on this are endless and once upon a time the Blood Mage community in VG had great idea's about it. Sadly there where never enough resources around for the developers to actually put some of the idea's in practise.

    Life Taps
    Life taps where the majority of the heals used by the Blood Mage community. The Blood Mage would have an ally in its friendly target and an enemy in his offensive target. He would damage the enemy and convert the damage done at a certain ratio to his ally.

    The great thing about it is that it creates a situation where your healer is LOS dependent on the mob and NOT the ally. THis is a totally different approach to healing than a classic healer and it further enforced by the fact that the majority of the healing of a Blood Mage stops as soon as he loses his offensive target.

    Another challenge is added because his heals is based on the damage he does. THis proves to be a big pitfall and balance problem since debuffs, and resistances need to be taken into account. A bloodmage needs to be usefull most encounters even if their defense is on the high side. But at the same time he should not be greatly overpowered on a weaker fight where he does a lot more damage. This is something Vanguard was never able to fix.

    Blood Union
    Blood Union was great but saldy under utitilized in Vanguard, you have 5 points of Blood Union and you could cast offensive or defensive spells by using these points. You build up these points by casting your lifetaps or doing abilities that involved the transition of blood.

    Additionallly the Blood Mage had a lifetap stance where he would gain blood union over time. A system I much more prefere is the necromancer / summoner / bloodmage class in Allods Online. You have a bigger Blood Union pool and are able to do a larger amount of things with it. Which creates a more challenging game-play since you actually need to think about how you spend you points. IN VG while you had less points you more or less always had enough Blood Union to go by.

    However what was a very nice feature of Blood Union in VG is that your lifetaps would take your Blood Union into account. This means that when you where maxed your heals and lifetaps would be more effective.

    Losing Blood
    Another great mechanic of the Blood Mage is that he actually lost health when using some abilities or if in a certain stance. In my oppinion the amount of health you lost was WAY to low. But it had the potential to give a real challenge to the player. Because you could end up killing yourself if you overheal your allies.

    In short I think Blood Mages should have the ability to heal with their own blood (costing HP instead of Mana)

    Crit Healing & Chains
    My favorite feature of the Blood Mage was the ability to heal based on criticals. THose who are not familiar with Vanguard: everytime any of your abilities would hit with a critical you had the ability to use a special ability called a chain.

    Blood Mages had the ability to cast a instant groupheal on their group whenever they crit. It was again poorly balanced in VG but the idea behind it was great. Ideally I would have the ability to single target heal and group heal on a crit simply because it makes more sense. The most fun about this was the fact that you would actually be looking for crits in order to heal someone.

    You would time your abilities that had a higher possibility of opening a crit, on heal heavy fights you would leave your crit chain open untill the last possible second to maximise the use of the heal. OR you would use it asap and start searching for a new crit while healing to make sure you would have it at your disposal again as soon as possible.

    Rituals
    Another minor mechanic seen in VG from blood mages where blood rituals that could be cast by using their Blood Union. THis involved a small instand heal or a blood rune absorbing damage. These abilties where reasonably underpowered compared to the lifetaps and as a result hardly ever used.

    Which was a shame because the idea behind it was quite usefull.
    Last edited by Doc; 05-27-2010 at 07:37 AM.

  2. #2
    Plane Walker Fayde's Avatar
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    Iv all ways like the whole blood mage thing but never been fond of it been a healer.

    Blood magic to me all ways seems to be better as a damage dealer over If i stab my self i can heal your stab wound by using the blood form my own wound.

    I over think around stuff like that and end up thinking how can a blood mage ever not die if they become a healer they stab them self to heal by stabing them selfs for a never ending cycle or till they bleed to death.

    That been said would be nice to see it as a healer over the basic more common type's White mage and Priest that tend to be in most MMO's.
    Last edited by Fayde; 05-22-2010 at 10:33 AM.
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    Doc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fayde View Post
    Iv all ways like the whole blood mage thing but never been fond of it been a healer.

    Blood magic to me all ways seems to be better as a damage dealer over If i stab my self i can heal your stab wound by using the blood form my own wound.

    I over think around stuff like that and end up thinking how can a blood mage ever not die if they become a healer they stab them self to heal by stabing them selfs for a never ending cycle or till they bleed to death.
    That also brings up the point of when they did hurt their self to heal someone they would drain the life out of the enemy to regain theirs and if they got to low just use a life husk to build up some life so you didnt die.

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    I did like the blood mage a lot, especially the symbiotes.

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    Prophet of Telara Eldran's Avatar
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    I thought VG's Bloodmage was a nice, new take on a healing class.

    But from a purely thematic point of view I'd rather see some kind of empath healer.
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    Horizons had bloodmages, which came before VG, and I have to admit I completely loathed healer classes up until that point - bloodmage however was rather innovative and I really liked the idea - it became rather powerful in Horizons so unfortunately everyone and their gran put a bit of bloodmage into their characters, and it stopped being too unique, but the idea of stealing life to distribute to others, nuke other players and even heal - but at a price - was quite fun.

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    I've always liked the concept but I'm more of a pure healer fan myself. A blood mage would be a good alternative to all those who claim healing is boring (and yet somehow find hitting 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 on a damage class fun. ) I say yes to a blood mage and dual-targeting.

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    Shadowlander Derebe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jingcha View Post
    The blood mage was a pure caster healer. He could initiate blood pact on mobs which affected what skills he could use on them some things would stack extra blood pact others would take some stacks off. Blood pact also would build over time if in that stance. You had 3 stances Damage stance, neutral, and healing stance
    I think you mean blood union, not blood pact. But I agree, a bloodmage type class is needed - most fun class I've ever played. Cast like a sorceror and transfer that damage into healing. Very innovative.

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    Ascendant Kalbuir's Avatar
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    My long overdue BMG fanboi post

    I didn't want to be the one to make this thread, simply because I do not want to be the one to suggest they blindly copy a class from a game like Vanguard. But well everyone who reads my posts knows I share a deep passion for the Blood Mage class and the mechanics it has attached to it. (besides gnomes ofc.)

    So what makes Blood Mages so great? What makes them so popular in Vanguard? And why would they need to be a part of every other game! For those familiar with Blood Mages this thread will be pretty much obvious but I am going to take the time and explain everyone who didnt ever play one why it is the best class around.

    Background Blood Mage
    Blood Mages can more or less be interpeted into two ways, one way is the way Dragon Age did it, like dark magic mages who apply blood rituals and dark magic to run havoc through the enemy lines. In dragon age the Blood Mage is a limited healer. Or a little bit different, in VG Blood Mages where still quite evil and did have quite a few dark rituals but they where also the crazy scientist types which made use of body parts and blood to fuel they strenghts and heal their allies.

    In my personal oppinion the VG approach leaves much more open to development and creates a much more dynamic class.

    Focus of class
    The Blood Mage in vanguard belongs to the Healer Archtype. Now in VG the Blood Mages was a HEALER, I know certain people parsed high and saw themselves as DPS but (again) in my oppinion this was not the focus of the class.

    Why is it so much fun?
    The fun part of the Blood Mage was that you would heal with your damage, now again it was not the damage that mattered for me it was the fact that the damage I did was converted into health for my ally.

    The fact that you had to have a offensive target to heal from, take into account their defense and debuffs and current health when healing added a great challenge to play a Blood Mage in a good capacity.

    It was easy to play a Blood Mage, but it was not a class you could master as easily as others. The things you could do with a Blood Mage if you had practise where amazing and I might very well say overpowered but this was because of bad tweaking not bad design.

    I want to stress again that Blood Mage for me was not about damage, If the Blood Mage class would do a small amount of damage which would result in good amount heals then I would personally be VERY VERY VERY happy. Healers that do large amounts of damage while healing need to be prevented in my oppinion.The big flaw in Vanguard was that a Blood Mage could parse close to 8k dps when I left Vanguard and still had plenty of options on improving.

    Because the damage was so high and the confention (dmg to heal) was so poorly it resulted in hugely overpowered heals. If this was tweaked properly it would have resulted in a better balanced class which was just as fun to play.

    Game Mechanics

    Symbiotes
    One of the class defining buffs of the Blood Mage, the BMG would craft little creatures (symbiotes) from various body parts (heart, brain, muscle, stomach) and was able to infuse them into the bodies of enemies or allies. They both surved as utility as buffs and well in certain design idea's they could also have been applied as offensive spells. But this never made it in-game.

    The great thing about this is that each enemy or ally could only be effected by one symbiote, so (given that the symbiotes where balanced, which they where not in VG) every class and player needs to determine for themselves which symbiote gives them most gain. Taking into account playstyle, gear and abilities.

    Great examples of Symbiotes are:
    - Damage buff for a set amount of time.
    - Grants ability with a Damage buff for a short period of time on long cooldown.
    - Grants an ability that gives the ally a heal that he can use on any other ally or himself.
    - A heal over time.
    - A mana regen spell.

    The idea's on this are endless and once upon a time the Blood Mage community in VG had great idea's about it. Sadly there where never enough resources around for the developers to actually put some of the idea's in practise.

    Life Taps
    Life taps where the majority of the heals used by the Blood Mage community. The Blood Mage would have an ally in its friendly target and an enemy in his offensive target. He would damage the enemy and convert the damage done at a certain ratio to his ally.

    The great thing about it is that it creates a situation where your healer is LOS dependent on the mob and NOT the ally. THis is a totally different approach to healing than a classic healer and it further enforced by the fact that the majority of the healing of a Blood Mage stops as soon as he loses his offensive target.

    Another challenge is added because his heals is based on the damage he does. THis proves to be a big pitfall and balance problem since debuffs, and resistances need to be taken into account. A bloodmage needs to be usefull most encounters even if their defense is on the high side. But at the same time he should not be greatly overpowered on a weaker fight where he does a lot more damage. This is something Vanguard was never able to fix.

    Blood Union
    Blood Union was great but saldy under utitilized in Vanguard, you have 5 points of Blood Union and you could cast offensive or defensive spells by using these points. You build up these points by casting your lifetaps or doing abilities that involved the transition of blood.

    Additionallly the Blood Mage had a lifetap stance where he would gain blood union over time. A system I much more prefere is the necromancer / summoner / bloodmage class in Allods Online. You have a bigger Blood Union pool and are able to do a larger amount of things with it. Which creates a more challenging game-play since you actually need to think about how you spend you points. IN VG while you had less points you more or less always had enough Blood Union to go by.

    However what was a very nice feature of Blood Union in VG is that your lifetaps would take your Blood Union into account. This means that when you where maxed your heals and lifetaps would be more effective.

    Losing Blood
    Another great mechanic of the Blood Mage is that he actually lost health when using some abilities or if in a certain stance. In my oppinion the amount of health you lost was WAY to low. But it had the potential to give a real challenge to the player. Because you could end up killing yourself if you overheal your allies.

    In short I think Blood Mages should have the ability to heal with their own blood (costing HP instead of Mana)

    Crit Healing & Chains
    My favorite feature of the Blood Mage was the ability to heal based on criticals. THose who are not familiar with Vanguard: everytime any of your abilities would hit with a critical you had the ability to use a special ability called a chain.

    Blood Mages had the ability to cast a instant groupheal on their group whenever they crit. It was again poorly balanced in VG but the idea behind it was great. Ideally I would have the ability to single target heal and group heal on a crit simply because it makes more sense. The most fun about this was the fact that you would actually be looking for crits in order to heal someone.

    You would time your abilities that had a higher possibility of opening a crit, on heal heavy fights you would leave your crit chain open untill the last possible second to maximise the use of the heal. OR you would use it asap and start searching for a new crit while healing to make sure you would have it at your disposal again as soon as possible.

    Rituals
    Another minor mechanic seen in VG from blood mages where blood rituals that could be cast by using their Blood Union. THis involved a small instand heal or a blood rune absorbing damage. These abilties where reasonably underpowered compared to the lifetaps and as a result hardly ever used.

    Which was a shame because the idea behind it was quite usefull.

    Kind Regards,
    Kalbuir

  10. #10
    Official Rift Founding Fan Site Operator Arithion's Avatar
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    Fanboi post or not, it's excellent information for an amazing class. I found it hard to choose between a Psionicist and Bloodmage in the beta for the VG Launch. Eventually I went with Psionicist, but always had a Bloodmage alt. Loved the class.

    I'd vote for something similar to be included too - biased or not ;)
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    Doc
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalbuir View Post
    My long overdue BMG fanboi post

    I didn't want to be the one to make this thread, simply because I do not want to be the one to suggest they blindly copy a class from a game like Vanguard. But well everyone who reads my posts knows I share a deep passion for the Blood Mage class and the mechanics it has attached to it. (besides gnomes ofc.)

    So what makes Blood Mages so great? What makes them so popular in Vanguard? And why would they need to be a part of every other game! For those familiar with Blood Mages this thread will be pretty much obvious but I am going to take the time and explain everyone who didnt ever play one why it is the best class around.

    Background Blood Mage
    Blood Mages can more or less be interpeted into two ways, one way is the way Dragon Age did it, like dark magic mages who apply blood rituals and dark magic to run havoc through the enemy lines. In dragon age the Blood Mage is a limited healer. Or a little bit different, in VG Blood Mages where still quite evil and did have quite a few dark rituals but they where also the crazy scientist types which made use of body parts and blood to fuel they strenghts and heal their allies.

    In my personal oppinion the VG approach leaves much more open to development and creates a much more dynamic class.

    Focus of class
    The Blood Mage in vanguard belongs to the Healer Archtype. Now in VG the Blood Mages was a HEALER, I know certain people parsed high and saw themselves as DPS but (again) in my oppinion this was not the focus of the class.

    Why is it so much fun?
    The fun part of the Blood Mage was that you would heal with your damage, now again it was not the damage that mattered for me it was the fact that the damage I did was converted into health for my ally.

    The fact that you had to have a offensive target to heal from, take into account their defense and debuffs and current health when healing added a great challenge to play a Blood Mage in a good capacity.

    It was easy to play a Blood Mage, but it was not a class you could master as easily as others. The things you could do with a Blood Mage if you had practise where amazing and I might very well say overpowered but this was because of bad tweaking not bad design.

    I want to stress again that Blood Mage for me was not about damage, If the Blood Mage class would do a small amount of damage which would result in good amount heals then I would personally be VERY VERY VERY happy. Healers that do large amounts of damage while healing need to be prevented in my oppinion.The big flaw in Vanguard was that a Blood Mage could parse close to 8k dps when I left Vanguard and still had plenty of options on improving.

    Because the damage was so high and the confention (dmg to heal) was so poorly it resulted in hugely overpowered heals. If this was tweaked properly it would have resulted in a better balanced class which was just as fun to play.

    Game Mechanics

    Symbiotes
    One of the class defining buffs of the Blood Mage, the BMG would craft little creatures (symbiotes) from various body parts (heart, brain, muscle, stomach) and was able to infuse them into the bodies of enemies or allies. They both surved as utility as buffs and well in certain design idea's they could also have been applied as offensive spells. But this never made it in-game.

    The great thing about this is that each enemy or ally could only be effected by one symbiote, so (given that the symbiotes where balanced, which they where not in VG) every class and player needs to determine for themselves which symbiote gives them most gain. Taking into account playstyle, gear and abilities.

    Great examples of Symbiotes are:
    - Damage buff for a set amount of time.
    - Grants ability with a Damage buff for a short period of time on long cooldown.
    - Grants an ability that gives the ally a heal that he can use on any other ally or himself.
    - A heal over time.
    - A mana regen spell.

    The idea's on this are endless and once upon a time the Blood Mage community in VG had great idea's about it. Sadly there where never enough resources around for the developers to actually put some of the idea's in practise.

    Life Taps
    Life taps where the majority of the heals used by the Blood Mage community. The Blood Mage would have an ally in its friendly target and an enemy in his offensive target. He would damage the enemy and convert the damage done at a certain ratio to his ally.

    The great thing about it is that it creates a situation where your healer is LOS dependent on the mob and NOT the ally. THis is a totally different approach to healing than a classic healer and it further enforced by the fact that the majority of the healing of a Blood Mage stops as soon as he loses his offensive target.

    Another challenge is added because his heals is based on the damage he does. THis proves to be a big pitfall and balance problem since debuffs, and resistances need to be taken into account. A bloodmage needs to be usefull most encounters even if their defense is on the high side. But at the same time he should not be greatly overpowered on a weaker fight where he does a lot more damage. This is something Vanguard was never able to fix.

    Blood Union
    Blood Union was great but saldy under utitilized in Vanguard, you have 5 points of Blood Union and you could cast offensive or defensive spells by using these points. You build up these points by casting your lifetaps or doing abilities that involved the transition of blood.

    Additionallly the Blood Mage had a lifetap stance where he would gain blood union over time. A system I much more prefere is the necromancer / summoner / bloodmage class in Allods Online. You have a bigger Blood Union pool and are able to do a larger amount of things with it. Which creates a more challenging game-play since you actually need to think about how you spend you points. IN VG while you had less points you more or less always had enough Blood Union to go by.

    However what was a very nice feature of Blood Union in VG is that your lifetaps would take your Blood Union into account. This means that when you where maxed your heals and lifetaps would be more effective.

    Losing Blood
    Another great mechanic of the Blood Mage is that he actually lost health when using some abilities or if in a certain stance. In my oppinion the amount of health you lost was WAY to low. But it had the potential to give a real challenge to the player. Because you could end up killing yourself if you overheal your allies.

    In short I think Blood Mages should have the ability to heal with their own blood (costing HP instead of Mana)

    Crit Healing & Chains
    My favorite feature of the Blood Mage was the ability to heal based on criticals. THose who are not familiar with Vanguard: everytime any of your abilities would hit with a critical you had the ability to use a special ability called a chain.

    Blood Mages had the ability to cast a instant groupheal on their group whenever they crit. It was again poorly balanced in VG but the idea behind it was great. Ideally I would have the ability to single target heal and group heal on a crit simply because it makes more sense. The most fun about this was the fact that you would actually be looking for crits in order to heal someone.

    You would time your abilities that had a higher possibility of opening a crit, on heal heavy fights you would leave your crit chain open untill the last possible second to maximise the use of the heal. OR you would use it asap and start searching for a new crit while healing to make sure you would have it at your disposal again as soon as possible.

    Rituals
    Another minor mechanic seen in VG from blood mages where blood rituals that could be cast by using their Blood Union. THis involved a small instand heal or a blood rune absorbing damage. These abilties where reasonably underpowered compared to the lifetaps and as a result hardly ever used.

    Which was a shame because the idea behind it was quite usefull.

    Kind Regards,
    Kalbuir

    moving this to the original post, and adding source link!

  12. #12
    Shadowlander Derebe's Avatar
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    I disagree that parsing 8k was a problem. 8k was easy when not a lot of healing was necessary (ie Guar), however on fights where the role was more of a primary healer, the parse was not that high. I enjoy having the option of nuking or healing depending on that raid and on the encounter.

    I do agree that the crit heal was the most fun element of the class - there is nothing as much fun as holding that crit to get it off in the nanosecond it's needed - it's a wonderful mechanic, as was pacting. Pacting added a good element of strategy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derebe View Post
    I do agree that the crit heal was the most fun element of the class - there is nothing as much fun as holding that crit to get it off in the nanosecond it's needed - it's a wonderful mechanic, as was pacting. Pacting added a good element of strategy.
    I especially liked when they saved that crit group heal for a mob that reflected arcane damage and killed the entire group... You could always tell who the new BM was in APW.

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    Shadowlander Derebe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Punishment View Post
    I especially liked when they saved that crit group heal for a mob that reflected arcane damage and killed the entire group... You could always tell who the new BM was in APW.
    I usually reserved that for Chaco.

    But arc ane reflection was a fun part of the class & I wouldn't change it. It's a complicated class, and that was part of the allure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Derebe View Post
    I disagree that parsing 8k was a problem. 8k was easy when not a lot of healing was necessary (ie Guar), however on fights where the role was more of a primary healer, the parse was not that high. I enjoy having the option of nuking or healing depending on that raid and on the encounter.

    I do agree that the crit heal was the most fun element of the class - there is nothing as much fun as holding that crit to get it off in the nanosecond it's needed - it's a wonderful mechanic, as was pacting. Pacting added a good element of strategy.
    Parsing 6k on fights like Varking / Smi / Yerk while almost exclusively healing tanks and keeping group up with BT while keepings dots up is still way to much for a healer in my oppinion. Or atleast not fair to other healer classes. But then again there where also plenty of BMG who stuggled with their damage and for some unexplainable reason for me had trouble lifetapping.

    Regards,
    Kalbuir

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