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Thread: Let's Talk about OP again?

  1. #1
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    Default Let's Talk about OP again?

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...76/unknown.png

    This is 8 Boss's top 10 DPS record (Yellow color is Average)
    Almost of Primal's record is made before Nerf, but a few of them, is after Nerf
    so I'd check them with Red color (before Nerf) & Black color (after Nerf)
    Primal got 15% damage reduce by Nerf ( almost of high performance Primalist is agree about that ) some ppl says 20% but… I don think so.
    "Primal Nerf revice" Chart is -15% If It's before Nerf record, but there is a small Error
    Because some primalist got 6th upgrade of Eternal weapon after Nerf and they couldn't update of their record, Only a few ppl did update
    So I guess Primal's Average DPS would be Large a few more

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...88/unknown.png

    Watch this chart, It's from turtle site's data
    for now, what class is OP? or what is under?

    Rouge says Primal is OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    lol… I feel Rouge is OP too ( I'm playing Primal and Rouge and Weakest class Mage )
    Rouge says it is high because of the combat type is Cleaving
    Yes, Primal is higher than Rouge at Single Target DPS
    but When we talk about DPS, we have to consider raid situation
    Raid is always….
    Some of Single target boss, and Cleaving boss, sometimes Single & Cleaving
    and sometimes moving DPS and sometimes can't Melee
    If some boss couldn’t stack to boss and only range DPS is allowed
    Rouge and Primal will be sux as hell ( because rouge and primal's Range dps is underpower )

    It's Rift Raid's fault, They failed to make various environments
    and since 4.0 All the classes have never been balanced before.
    and I hope Dev will create a variety of environments, with Next raid contents


    BTW, I'm not trying to say Rouge is OP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Lol there is too many Cleave as they talking
    totally, Primal and Rouge need some Nerf
    And the other class need 10% Buff, It's all I want to say

    and The reason I write this complicated article hard

    I wish Rift will be adjusted in a balanced way.

    And I hope they fix Mage's bug =P
    Last edited by Skidrow; 09-25-2017 at 09:21 AM.

  2. #2
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    The statistic method used here is fundamentally flawed.

    The high primalists before nerf say your buddy Zonna gets 2.12m before nerf, but hes can only do 2.11m after nerf, you completely ignore that 2.11m AFTER nerf, or your buddy Zpop getting 2.26m before nerf and if he's ONLY doing 2.25m after nerf, this 2.25m is also again ignored. Just because they couldn't beat their previous results (or they haven't uploaded since), their new parses are completely ignored... due to how PrancingTurtle works, also the reason why you can't have anyone individual to occupy more than 1 slot in the top 10 ranking.

    Essentially you are ignoring all top primalist UNLESS they somehow beaten their own top record with the nerf.

    So if all top 10 primalist failed to beat their own old record, you ignore them you are basically basing your arguments from the #11 to #20 primalist vs top 10 from other classes.

    Using your Silgen for example only 1 primliast beaten their previous record so you are taking the average of that 1 primalist with the other lower 9 (often below top 10) primaist to the best of other classes.

    So basically it's flawed which makes most of your point pointless.

    2nd,
    You know the time has changed when cleaving dps is treated the same as pure single target /sigh.

    Sure I will give the cleave vs ST argument to you, but using a blanket 10% nerf on 2 different specs are again fundamentally flawed.

    I am not saying you are not making a point, but coming from a statistical analyst stand point I have to point out your arguments is completely flawed.

    You are using manipulated numbers (you ignoring all top primalists as long as they failed to beat their own numbers before nerf) vs the raw data from the other classes.

    Again, not saying you are not making a point, but flawed data points are flawed.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 09-23-2017 at 02:16 PM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    The statistic method used here is fundamentally flawed.

    The high primalists before nerf say your buddy Zonna gets 2.2m before nerf, but hes can only do 2.19m after nerf, you completely ignore that 2.19m AFTER nerf player just because he couldn't beat his previous result. Essentially you are ignoring all top primalist UNLESS they somehow beaten their own top record with the nerf.

    So if all top 10 primalist failed to beat their own old record, you ignore them you are basically basing your arguments from the #11 to #20 primalist vs top 10 from other classes.

    Using your Silgen for example only 1 primliast beaten their previous record so you are taking the average of that 1 primalist with the other lower 9 (often below top 10) primaist to the best of other classes.

    So basically it's flawed which makes most of your point pointless.

    2nd,
    You know the time has changed when cleaving dps is treated the same as pure single target /sigh.

    Sure I will give the cleave vs ST argument to you, but using a blanket 10% nerf on 2 different specs are again fundamentally flawed.

    I am not saying you are not making a point, but coming from a statistical analyst stand point I have to point out your arguments is completely flawed.

    You are using manipulated numbers (you ignoring all top primalists as long as they failed to beat their own numbers before nerf) vs the raw data from the other classes.

    Again, not saying you are not making a point, but flawed data points are flawed.

    Yes I agree with you,

    Primal's record point has Error it's ignore their DPS Elevation in 3 week
    and I mentioned about that.

    but If Primal's damage point is higher, other class's being low % because almost of
    primal's damage point is higher than average

    and it's mean still same what I want to say with this posting
    Last edited by Skidrow; 09-23-2017 at 02:18 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidrow View Post
    Yes I gree with you,

    Primal's record point has Error it's ignore their DPS Elevation in 3 week
    and I mentioned about that.

    but If Primal's damage point is higher, other class's being low % because almost of
    primal's damage point is higher than average

    and it's mean still same what I want to say with this posting
    Your data has no meaning actually unless you are comparing #11 to #20 primalist to #1 to #10 of other classes.
    Like I said you are using manipulated data vs raw data of the other classes. And this data will always be flawed unless all primalist on ranking beat their own old record or Hewi run a purge on PT to purge out all pre-nerf primalist numbers.

    The only point your post made was
    1. Cleaving specs out cleaved single target specs. and

    2. Primalist even with the nerfs and ignoring the top 10 primalist (unless they have beat their own record before nerf) and only using lower end primalist results, primalist still beat top 10 rogues in pure single target averages. (Beruhast and Silgen).
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 09-23-2017 at 02:28 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    Your data has no meaning actually unless you are comparing #11 to #20 primalist to #1 to #10 of other classes.
    Like I said you are using manipulated data vs raw data of the other classes. And this data will always be flawed unless all primalist on ranking beat their own old record or Hewi run a purge on PT to purge out all pre-nerf primalist numbers.

    The only point your post made was
    1. Cleaving specs out cleaved single target specs. and

    2. Primalist even with the nerfs and ignoring the top 10 primalist (unless they have beat their own record before nerf) and only using lower end primalist results, primalist still beat top 10 rogues in pure single target averages. (Beruhast and Silgen).

    I'd post because I want to suggest what is Average and what they need to fix for balancing
    but you seems like you want to say Primalist is still higher than Rouge...
    Point is Warrior Cleric Mage is Underpower,
    Primal is OP, that's everyone known. but not much for now, even Rouge has almost close to primalist
    with 7th Weapon, Rouge's DPS is elevated like 15% with 7th Eternal upgrade, and mage just got 4% or so
    even Primalist is not elevated like Rouge

    It's mean Rouge's Eternal weapon proc buff need to Nerf It's breaking DPS or HPS even with tank
    Rouge tank getting 45k Heal by self every time they getting hit and It's almost passive
    the boss you guys love Beruhast, Rouge tank don't even need healer, do you think Beruhast as a raid boss?
    and Golem, Rouge can solo kill Golem right now do you think It's not OP?

    I know that's not perfact but I think it can be direction guidance
    Last edited by Skidrow; 09-23-2017 at 02:59 PM.

  6. #6
    Soulwalker
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    Yes, rogue and primalist need a nerf but only mage need a buff. I think cleric and warrior (with trincket and last eternal weapon up) are actualy pretty good. ^^
    Last edited by pyriann; 09-23-2017 at 03:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidrow View Post
    Rouge tank getting 45k Heal by self every time they getting hit and...
    and Golem, Rouge can solo kill Golem right now do you think It's not OP?
    Your data also doesn't show rogue soloing or healing. Like I said totally pointless.

    Also
    Quote Originally Posted by Skidrow View Post
    with 7th Weapon, Rouge's DPS is elevated like 15% with 7th Eternal upgrade,...
    even Primalist is not elevated like Rouge
    then
    Quote Originally Posted by Skidrow View Post
    Primal got 15% damage reduce by Nerf ( almost of high performance Primalist is agree about that ) some ppl says 20%
    So you said rogue eternal elevated rogue by 15%, then you said even primalist didnt elevated that high.
    Then your own data has primalist beaten their own old parse with eternal 7 weapon after the nerf... which means some primalist elevated more than 15% possibly more.

    Again your data doesn't even support what you are trying to convey. Hence why I called it useless.

    They showed AoE spec AoE'ed better than single target spec, and primalist even after the (15% to 20%) nerf and using the lower end primalists parses which still topped the top 10 parses average of all other classes in pure single target.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 09-23-2017 at 04:06 PM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    Your data also doesn't subject to rogue soloing or healing. Like I said totally pointless.
    yes It's diff issue but, anyways Point is Rouge is OP
    maybe you need some more information about Primal's DPS
    how much did we lost from Nerf

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...82/unknown.png

    Grey color box is My primalist's Record and showing you
    and It seems some more % need for a reliable result
    so I changed Primal's Nerf revice to 90%

    and this is from that

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...66/unknown.png

    Do you think there's a big difference?

    Even I just make w/o Nerf issue of Primalist
    The result is the same.
    I'm not talking this is perfact data lol there is too many kind of variable
    but It still enough to show which class need Nerf or Buff

    Point is not Primal or Rouge, and you told Beruhast's DPS chase

    Zopop's 1st record and 2 3 4 new record ( after Nerf ),
    Zopop was with 6th Weapon, and 2 3 4 record with Searing Vitality bug

    Primal got Nerf and that was not little as you guys think
    you can find from my Primal's record, coz there is no Legendary Searing vitality
    Last edited by Skidrow; 09-23-2017 at 04:53 PM.

  9. #9
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    tldr

    I am just pointing out the extreme flaws in your data. Don't care what you are trying to do, just pointing out wrong data.

    Enjoy.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidrow View Post
    It's mean Rouge's Eternal weapon proc buff need to Nerf It's breaking DPS or HPS even with tank Rouge tank getting 45k Heal by self every time they getting hit and It's almost passive
    the boss you guys love Beruhast, Rouge tank don't even need healer, do you think Beruhast as a raid boss?
    and Golem, Rouge can solo kill Golem right now do you think It's not OP?
    Welcome to Rift: Rogue Nation. Best Tank, Best Healer, Best DD
    be realistic let's try the impossible

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    tldr

    I am just pointing out the extreme flaws in your data. Don't care what you are trying to do, just pointing out wrong data.

    Enjoy.
    you dont need to point on the perfection of the data to see that primalist does as mutch as twice as Warriors clerics or mages dps for months.
    skid is trying to pass the message about op specs (his own specs) and many class's struggling "many players suffering from that". but you focus more on the perfection of the data than the subject and the goal of using the datas. just few weeks ago primalist 4th Eternal weapon beat a 5th weapon rouge that beat a 6th Eternal weapon war cleric or mage, thats a big faillure on tunning, it doesnt mean that the players sucks, players feels that heavily. you have player with full Bis essences and overlord sets and perfectly running complex rotations not reaching dps of MR nobody 'playing primalist' that uses green essences while using the same upgrad of weapons ... when it touchs all the base players, then itsnot the quality of the player, its more balancement of the specs...
    theres players that knows each others for years and plays many specs perfectly in same time 'skid is one of them', and they clearly see that tuning specs have a weight on dps of each class and disparity on this expension is heavy...

    to comeback to the subject, skid is pointing on a problem and i agree with him, a work and more tests is needed for balancing...
    and personnaly 'i play warrior' i dont care if my class get nerfed, we will be under other specs, but the quality of playing between a warrior and another warrior will stay the same its just the edge requirements to get to a raiding group will be harder 'we need to be better than primalists and rouge dps to get a dps spot'.

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    again tldr

    btw another point why I said the stats used are completely pointless is also with the fix of Legendary Searing Vitality providing raid buffs, this was fixed the same week as the groups of people who got their level 7 eternals as well as the primalist LSS "nerfs".

    The way Skid ignored all top primalist before the nerf is even more ridiculous than it sounds.
    Not only the top primalists numbers are completely ignored, the number is basically based off of

    Top 11 to 20 Primalist AFTER the LSS nerfs and AFTER the Legendary Searing Vitality fix
    vs
    Top 1 to top 10 other classes BEFORE the legendary searing vitality fix unless they also beating their previous record.

    The amazing thing is somehow #11 to #20 Primalist still win out in single target averages WITH the nerfs in place and WITHOUT LSearing Vitality bug in place vs top#1 to top#10 of all other classes WITH Legendary Searing Vitality exploit in place (unless they have beaten their previous record).

    The hole in the entire dataset is so huge to a point it's laughable that the data is even being used.

    It it also saying nothing but how AoE specs out AoE'ed single target specs in AoE fights and Primalist is still beating everything in game in single target by far using the weaker #11 to #20 primalists without the LSV exploit with the LSS nerf vs top 10 of all other classes with LSV exploit active.

    I cannot agree with using extremely broken/manipulated numbers to manipulate a result favorable to their argument, because that's exactly that, data manipulation of broken data.

    Skid not only extremely and severely downplayed primalist numbers he exaggerated rogues by using their top 10 and using all fights which are mostly cleaving fights (this is every boss except silgen and beruhast and mal) with LSV exploit being active again to manipulate the numbers to fit certain vendetta that I don't care about.)

    Actually if we using ALL data as is straight and raw from prancing turtle withy top 10 of each class and not manipulate them like Skid did by dropping top 10 primalists

    Here's the result using the single target fights using Cleric as base line shows the following:

    Mage
    (97%)

    Cleric
    (100%)

    Warrior
    (105%)

    Rogue
    (121%)

    Primalist
    (160%)

    So basically 2 primalist is better than 3 of any of the other classes in pure single target dps. (and this gap in single target dps is easily the biggest since the 1st day of rift closed beta)

    Using this set of data it's clear to see Primalist are 3 times more overpowered than rogues are compare to cleric... there's no wonder skid has to manipulate the parses and the data is further convoluted bring in AoE as a part of dps consideration.


    Again I don't care what skid is trying to do, I am pointing out how stupid the dataset used was.

    And I just proved it how primalist is clearly 3 times as overpowered as rogue when a specific set of data is used (aka by using single target and not ignoring top 10 primalists).

    Actually if the top 10 pre-nerf primalists parses weren't dropped by Skid, Primalists not only beating rogues in each and every single target fights, they actually beat rogue in some cleave fight as well (high priest, ereandorn).

    I rest my case, I did not want to talk about the parses right now because the data is broken currently with too much variable that just got thrown in (Eternal 7 + LSS nerf +LSV fix) in such a short time.
    Last edited by Xio Narius; 09-24-2017 at 09:42 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    again tldr

    btw another point why I said the stats used are completely pointless is also with the fix of Legendary Searing Vitality providing raid buffs, this was fixed the same week as the groups of people who got their level 7 eternals as well as the primalist LSS "nerfs".

    The way Skid ignored all top primalist before the nerf is even more ridiculous than it sounds.
    Not only the top primalists numbers are completely ignored, the number is basically based off of

    Top 11 to 20 Primalist AFTER the LSS nerfs and AFTER the Legendary Searing Vitality fix
    vs
    Top 1 to top 10 other classes BEFORE the legendary searing vitality fix unless they also beating their previous record.

    The amazing thing is somehow #11 to #20 Primalist still win out in single target averages WITH the nerfs in place and WITHOUT LSearing Vitality bug in place vs top#1 to top#10 of all other classes WITH Legendary Searing Vitality exploit in place (unless they have beaten their previous record).

    The hole in the entire dataset is so huge to a point it's laughable that the data is even being used.

    It it also saying nothing but how AoE specs out AoE'ed single target specs in AoE fights and Primalist is still beating everything in game in single target by far using the weaker #11 to #20 primalists without the LSV exploit with the LSS nerf vs top 10 of all other classes with LSV exploit active.

    I cannot agree with using extremely broken/manipulated numbers to manipulate a result favorable to their argument, because that's exactly that, data manipulation of broken data.

    Skid not only extremely and severely downplayed primalist numbers he exaggerated rogues by using their top 10 and using all fights which are mostly cleaving fights (this is every boss except silgen and beruhast and mal) with LSV exploit being active again to manipulate the numbers to fit certain vendetta that I don't care about.)

    Actually if we using ALL data as is straight and raw from prancing turtle withy top 10 of each class and not manipulate them like Skid did by dropping top 10 primalists

    Here's the result using the single target fights using Cleric as base line shows the following:

    Mage
    (97%)

    Cleric
    (100%)

    Warrior
    (105%)

    Rogue
    (121%)

    Primalist
    (160%)

    So basically 2 primalist is better than 3 of any of the other classes in pure single target dps. (and this gap in single target dps is easily the biggest since the 1st day of rift closed beta)

    Using this set of data it's clear to see Primalist are 3 times more overpowered than rogues are compare to cleric... there's no wonder skid has to manipulate the parses and the data is further convoluted bring in AoE as a part of dps consideration.


    Again I don't care what skid is trying to do, I am pointing out how stupid the dataset used was.

    And I just proved it how primalist is clearly 3 times as overpowered as rogue when a specific set of data is used (aka by using single target and not ignoring top 10 primalists).

    Actually if the top 10 pre-nerf primalists parses weren't dropped by Skid, Primalists not only beating rogues in each and every single target fights, they actually beat rogue in some cleave fight as well (high priest, ereandorn).

    I rest my case, I did not want to talk about the parses right now because the data is broken currently with too much variable that just got thrown in (Eternal 7 + LSS nerf +LSV fix) in such a short time.
    Still ... Looking at the data from the Nerfed primalist, and you want to say
    primal is OP... beside our raid team (in primal's record) no one updated
    record only just 3 person even they couldn't update every record, just a few of
    Beruhast's record

    If you are looking for a little bit of effort on turtle site
    You can see that the Nerfed results of the Primalist do not make much difference from the data I presented
    You're still saying the same thing.
    Without seeing my writing properly
    Defending Rouge...

    Alright then

    From other posts ...
    I'll talk about Rouge's OP situation, which I think is serious.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidrow View Post
    beside our raid team (in primal's record) no one updated
    record only just 3 person even they couldn't update every record, just a few of
    Beruhast's record.
    So you dropped their top parses completely. Again just like what I said, this is the biggest hole in your attempt of data manipulation.

    And I just showed you what it looked like if only raw data was used without all kinds of convenient manipulation.

    Your "primalist and rogue should both be nerfed by 10%" is flawed when the gap between a cleric to primalist is 3x larger than a cleric to a rogue.

    Your claim of rogues gain more with eternal 7 than primalist is also wrong and was even refuted by your own data.

    It's cool if you think rogue should be nerfed, that's cool... even tho it's ironic that primalists' advantage is triple that rogues have over other classes yet you said they should both get nerfed by an equal amount which is clearly ridiculous...

    Lastly, again the hole in your data is crippling, the manipulation of data is also extremely unfair and biased.

    You either use all data raw or dropping the same data EQUALLY across the board not just dropping top primalists.

    Hence, you should only use data that came in AFTER the LSV fix UNIVERSALLY. Basically you should be applying your "convenient top primalist filter" across ALL classes not just primalists...

    Then split up pure single target and AoE dps should be in 2 separate data set especially when each boss the amount that's able to be cleaved are different.

    Pure single target dps are historically weighted far heavier than cleaving.
    If we are looking at cleaving dps the same as single target dps then Shaman/Pyromancer >>> lulFuryBlast primalist (yet you are complaining that these specs are weak) which is another hole in your data by saying AOE dps = ST point for point which is extremely flawed...
    DEV also doesn't ask players to test single target dps with more than 1 target dummies.

    There's no point for me to repeatedly point out how wrong your data is. If you think rogue should be nerfed by xx% or mage should 1 button 3 million dps and primalist should get an aoe buff, they are not my concern.

    It will be more effective for you to pm Keyens directly, not posting an clearly unfairly manipulated data to try to make a point then try to spin it after the flaws and bias are pointed out.

    edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Skidrow View Post
    I'll talk about Rouge's OP situation, which I think is serious.
    I've never said rogues shouldn't have a nerf (please quote where I said it), I pointed out how ridiculous your manipulation of data is. And unfairly manipulate the data to your convenience and downplay the class you want to defend (primalist) only makes your arguments sound weaker when it's found out.

    Just pm Keyens why you think rogues should be nerfed directly, dont use broken datasets.

    /sigh
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 09-25-2017 at 02:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    So you dropped their top parses completely. Again just like what I said, this is the biggest hole in your attempt of data manipulation.

    And I just showed you what it looked like if only raw data was used without all kinds of convenient manipulation.

    Your "primalist and rogue should both be nerfed by 10%" is flawed when the gap between a cleric to primalist is 3x larger than a cleric to a rogue.

    Your claim of rogues gain more with eternal 7 than primalist is also wrong and was even refuted by your own data.

    It's cool if you think rogue should be nerfed, that's cool... even tho it's ironic that primalists' advantage is triple that rogues have over other classes yet you said they should both get nerfed by an equal amount which is clearly ridiculous...

    Lastly, again the hole in your data is crippling, the manipulation of data is also extremely unfair and biased.

    You either use all data raw or dropping the same data EQUALLY across the board not just dropping top primalists.

    Hence, you should only use data that came in AFTER the LSV fix UNIVERSALLY. Basically you should be applying your "convenient top primalist filter" across ALL classes not just primalists...

    Then split up pure single target and AoE dps should be in 2 separate data set especially when each boss the amount that's able to be cleaved are different.

    Pure single target dps are historically weighted far heavier than cleaving.
    If we are looking at cleaving dps the same as single target dps then Shaman/Pyromancer >>> lulFuryBlast primalist (yet you are complaining that these specs are weak) which is another hole in your data by saying AOE dps = ST point for point which is extremely flawed...
    DEV also doesn't ask players to test single target dps with more than 1 target dummies.

    There's no point for me to repeatedly point out how wrong your data is. If you think rogue should be nerfed by xx% or mage should 1 button 3 million dps and primalist should get an aoe buff, they are not my concern.

    It will be more effective for you to pm Keyens directly, not posting an clearly unfairly manipulated data to try to make a point then try to spin it after the flaws and bias are pointed out.

    edit:


    I've never said rogues shouldn't have a nerf (please quote where I said it), I pointed out how ridiculous your manipulation of data is. And unfairly manipulate the data to your convenience and downplay the class you want to defend (primalist) only makes your arguments sound weaker when it's found out.

    Just pm Keyens how you demand rogues be nerfed directly, dont use broken data sets.

    /sigh
    There was a lot of credit card swapping in buildind those primalists....how dare Trion just make other classes at par with prim and just make us feel like .....like it was a waste of ₩.


    Point for point at the same lv of stats and gear primalist will out preform a rogue ez pz if both know wht they are doing,i only agree in nerfing that 2 button nb 54 sab 22 abomination...i have parced with a prime with 4k cp and about 10k less ap and i was doing 1.15 M on the 72 dummy and he was at 1M ....ridiculous.Prime is broken and needs a fix, well played cleric is at a very good spot,rogues and warriors are ok i guess and mages well played are at a good spot to...and the key word is well played,i see a lot of headless chickens running arround in both pve and pvp and we cannot measure a calling preformance by these players,i say it again prime beats all other classes by far if all players know their sht.

    So my proposal would be nerf rogue by maybe 10%,buff wr cler and mage by 10% and nerf prime by 25%.
    Last edited by bollesti; 09-25-2017 at 04:29 AM.

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