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Thread: Let's Talk about OP again?

  1. #31
    Ascendant bitnine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stihl View Post
    This makes me a bit sad. I think it was the right move to have larger gaps in power between tiers than they did in NMT like they were in vanilla/SL, but planar fragments and eternals were poorly thought out and WAY too strong to make those gaps relevant. Your armor page means almost nothing compared to your fragments and the level of your eternal weapon.
    Indeed. Consider the following two statements:
    • Fragments and enternals and the current gear motifs are fine because you don't need them fully upgraded to complete the content.
    • Primalists are fine because you don't need to play one to complete the content. (Not just "you" - no one needs to be playing one to complete content.)

    While I disagree with the sentiment of both, I don't really see a material difference between the two. Both are letting go of previous notions of performance and balance and instead using a non-competitive pass/fail metric that's so mild that it's pretty much a given.

    Numbers are fungable and 20% is 20%. Would it really help to pretend that every blue name spent more time and money on fragments and IRC charges and whatnot and ignore their class? There really aren't even firm baselines anymore. Given the effective asymptotic curvature of RNG gearing, the idea of BIS itself is fairly moot, particularly in the time frame of an active tier.

    tldr:
    Using the "can complete content" metric: Fragments are fine. Primalists are fine. Everything is fine.

  2. #32
    Plane Touched Kreezhem's Avatar
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    I believe the issue isn't about " can you complete the content" .
    People want to have their impact on the game when they form group. Some people want to compete with each other and try to be first on the E-Winny (dps meter). And the fact a class is doing 150% what you are able to do gets some people angry, and it is understandable.

    For example : If you put 3 prima dps on a raid with a war dps, the war can do quite good and deal over 1M dps or be total garbage and deal 200k, it will not change anything, because he doesn't have any weight in his group efficicency. The 3 primalist will deal so much damage that the warrior will be obsolete compared to them. The war player won't even feel like he is fully participating to the raid, he will feel like he is just standing there waiting for his mate to do the job ( if he wanted that he would play tank )


    Also it is clear that for the gear suffix, the fragments, and the eternal grind, it's all about keeping players on the game. It is nor enjoyable nor necessary. It makes it much harder to get good and competitive alts.

    When something is only based on luck and not skills it tend to make people angry.
    It would have been much more interesting to have difficulty levels (just more health and damage output for enemies), each difficulty level giving a special suffix and clearing the raid could give one planar fragment you can pick between a few.
    Erase RNG, add some content without too much work for devs, people can advance at their own speed. I believe this is a win-win for players and staff.

  3. #33
    Telaran Cesium's Avatar
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    Let me see if I have this right.

    Primalists win single target non target swapping fights. Rogues are close.

    Rogues win any fight with cleave or aoe. Clerics are close.

    Warriors are near the top in every fight mechanic.

    Mages can play Chon or re-roll.

    Sounds to me like there are two problems. Devs creating too much of one type of raid style and Mages suck.
    The above post is most likely cynical, sarcastic, offensive, rude, unnecessary, and informative. I apologize for any information gained from said post. It was meant purely to be cynical, sarcastic, offensive, rude, and unnecessary.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cesium View Post
    Let me see if I have this right.

    Primalists win single target non target swapping fights. Rogues are close.

    Rogues win any fight with cleave or aoe. Clerics are close.

    Warriors are near the top in every fight mechanic.

    Mages can play Chon or re-roll.

    Sounds to me like there are two problems. Devs creating too much of one type of raid style and Mages suck.
    Yep when we ignore top 10 primalist and comparing top 10 other classes using the LSV exploit vs the #11 to #20 primalist without the LSV exploit, this would seem to be the case.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by bitnine View Post
    Indeed. Consider the following two statements:
    • Fragments and enternals and the current gear motifs are fine because you don't need them fully upgraded to complete the content.
    • Primalists are fine because you don't need to play one to complete the content. (Not just "you" - no one needs to be playing one to complete content.)

    While I disagree with the sentiment of both, I don't really see a material difference between the two. Both are letting go of previous notions of performance and balance and instead using a non-competitive pass/fail metric that's so mild that it's pretty much a given.

    Numbers are fungable and 20% is 20%. Would it really help to pretend that every blue name spent more time and money on fragments and IRC charges and whatnot and ignore their class? There really aren't even firm baselines anymore. Given the effective asymptotic curvature of RNG gearing, the idea of BIS itself is fairly moot, particularly in the time frame of an active tier.

    tldr:
    Using the "can complete content" metric: Fragments are fine. Primalists are fine. Everything is fine.
    I agree, i don't think "able to complete content" is the argument here. From the raw numbers top PT numbers, on average 2 primalists could push out more dps than 3 of any other classes, when you stick 4 primalist in raid doing dps it's like having 6 dps already, so nothing really matters in this point.

    There's an argument with cleaving, but if cleaving is the arguments then clearly shaman and pyromancer are both extremely effective as well heck even cleric tanks could cleave like a champ, so imo primalist having weaker cleave is not a valid justification of their stupid lead in pure single target dps which has been historically more important for progression in Rift's history.

    Ask a mage which are perceived as "underpowered" which they rather have, 2.2m pure single target dps like primalists or 4m aoe dps 61 stormcaller which is pretty much completely useless in most contents.

    Same thing could be said when you have rogues cleaving and each any every single bosses works like Zilas where cleaving dps actually means something then there might be a point. However in a cleaving role, warrior overlords easily fills the role, cleric chamans, or even mage pryromancers using eternal 7 would be able to fill the same role, but these classes won't be able to fill the 40% pure ST dps gap primalist could provide over them. Even the best rogues are still 200k+ dps behind.

    Base on the un-manipulated numbers suggest rogues could use 10% ST dps nerf plus cleave reduction (or actually fix single target rogue souls and make them viable). Then again based on the raw PT numbers Primalist would also require an additional 25% ST dps nerf to bring every class in line pure single target wise, if this is what this whole thread is about.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 09-27-2017 at 07:07 AM.

  6. #36
    Telaran
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    Please point me to a 2.2m post nerf Primalist parse NOT using the LSV bug. Mine is constantly being referenced but that was done with LSV and the still existing support buff stacking bug which further increased our raids damage by 10%. The highest I have seen without either of them is 1.95 which is admittedly still high.
    Last edited by Wynford; 09-27-2017 at 11:42 AM.
    Wynford@Greybriar (Cleric) - Martyrdom@Greybriar (Primalist) - Salmoneus@Greybriar (Mage)

  7. #37
    Plane Touched Dimples's Avatar
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    While I do not have access to all the data and the included data is not all inclusive, the data sampling is more than sufficient to provide a randomization databed to give us general idea of who is doing what DPS wise.

    I was able to gather the top 10 DPS for each boss, for each class from IRotP and TD(nm). The data was obtained from The Prancing Pony raid parser.

    This Google Spreadsheet contains all the compiled data in 3 separate reports.

    1) by your choice {worksheet - Summary (this does require making a copy in order to use the drop downs)}
    2) by Intrepid Rise of the Phoenix {worksheet - IRotP}
    3) by Tartaric Depths {worksheet - TD(nm)}

    In summary, after looking at all the data from each of the Raid fights, the results are pretty straight forward and clear, the Primalist and Rogue are so far beyond the other three, it's completely disheartening if you're not a Primalist or a Rogue.

    One person said it best (sorry if I don't recall who said it - but I'd like to plagiarize your saying) that if you've 3 Primalists and 1 Warrior (or any of "the other 3"), if the Warrior had a sneezing fit, a coughing bout, fell asleep at the keyboard, or even if a large animal crashed through their window and gnawed their arms off, the 3 Primalists (and the rest of the raid) wouldn't even know they were gone.
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    Dweia Rogue Tank * Nothing seems to express happiness quite as much as purring.
    Laurie Cleric Tank * Life without Love, is like chocolate cake made without sugar.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wynford View Post
    The highest I have seen without either of them is 1.95 which is admittedly still high.
    Which is roughly 200k ahead of the best rogues, and that's most of them rogues WITH LSV exploit.

    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    ... or even mage pryromancers using eternal 7 would be able to fill the same role, but these classes won't be able to fill the 40% pure ST dps gap primalist could provide over them. Even the best rogues are still 200k+ dps behind.
    Thanks for confirming.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 09-27-2017 at 02:23 PM.

  9. #39
    Telaran Biscuitsyum's Avatar
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    I feel like the mage number is wrong. The gap between top mages and everyone else seems MUCH larger. Also, does that number include all the chloro's and chon's dps???

    I feel like you, skidrow, and speedy can beat any class but primalist and rogue.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuitsyum View Post
    I feel like the mage number is wrong. The gap between top mages and everyone else seems MUCH larger. Also, does that number include all the chloro's and chon's dps???

    I feel like you, skidrow, and speedy can beat any class but primalist and rogue.
    Speedy got her numbers with just an eternal 6.

  11. #41
    Rift Disciple barrysneaks's Avatar
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    I think it is safe to infer from single parses and case scenarios that clerics/mages/warriors need a conservative 5% to 10% single target increase and should be observed to see if things level out.

    /closethread
    Rogue

  12. #42
    Plane Touched bollesti's Avatar
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    LSV exploit ????can someone clear me up on this?ever seen or heard the term.
    Last edited by bollesti; 09-27-2017 at 09:57 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by bollesti View Post
    LSV exploit ????can someone clear me up on this?ever seen or heard the term.
    Legendary Searing Vitality (archon ability). It was supposed to give non-archon mage abilities a 12% dmg boost to the debuffed target, but instead it gave the +12% dmg to the whole raid. No cooldown, 8 sec debuff. So pretty much 100% uptime (if you refreshed the debuff every 8 sec).

    BUT this was fixed like instantly at the next patch notes when it was discovered (been a few weeks ago) but for other bugs that've been waiting for months to be fixed, nothing.
    Last edited by Dragate; 09-27-2017 at 10:24 PM.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragate View Post
    Legendary Searing Vitality (archon ability). It was supposed to give non-archon mage abilities a 12% dmg boost to the debuffed target, but instead it gave the +12% dmg to the whole raid. No cooldown, 8 sec debuff. So pretty much 100% uptime (if you refreshed the debuff every 8 sec).
    It could even be stacked up, so since it was a 0 point ability, the more mages you had the higher the buff for the raid (provided they all took it, that is).

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Biscuitsyum View Post
    I feel like the mage number is wrong. The gap between top mages and everyone else seems MUCH larger. Also, does that number include all the chloro's and chon's dps???

    I feel like you, skidrow, and speedy can beat any class but primalist and rogue.
    As you say, the average of Mage does not match the mage's ability I think and I can.
    This is the level that exceeds the gap between the upper-level user and the intermediate user of the other classes.

    This means that the current DPS difficulty of the Mage class is high.

    Over the last few months, I've tried to share my knowledge of the Mage DPS, but I have not seen many users who are using it 100%.

    And I think that the difficulty of DPS is too much to consider in balancing.

    This is not about me.
    I love the difficulty. This requires me to do a lot of practice,
    It is my pleasure to see it in Raid.

    But when the mage is underpowered,
    I feel that the result of my play is a loss to other mages.

    So many mage users ask me. How do I play?
    Which build of Mage is the best?
    Unfortunately, my English skills can not satisfy them,
    After repeated efforts, I can not reach them even after I have given everything I know.

    Mage's Warlock builds even at 2.0
    It was like now. Pyro is no different. Basically it's easy, but getting the best performance was a really difficult task.

    That is why I hope that the mage will at least get away from underpower.
    Last edited by Skidrow; 09-28-2017 at 02:03 AM.

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