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Thread: Let's Talk about OP again?

  1. #16
    Shadowlander
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    Default Example

    I'm sorry that I told you defending rouge

    because you keep saying Primalist is still Monster.

    so I take some Example from Trinity's this week run data

    ( I wanted to use our data as an Example,
    but we couldn't make the appropriate data for the last two weeks,
    so we refer to the data from other guilds. )
    I am sorry for writing your data without consent.

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...29/unknown.png

    I will make average w/o Avernaa's dps ( I'm sorry Avernaa, It's not evaluation )

    we can find Primal and Rouge's GAP is closing.

    and here is damage percentage

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...54/unknown.png

    Even top class group's record,

    Do you think it's a far cry from comparing with the charts I offered?

    I don't know why you show that example with base Cleric's DPS

    now following percentage used Cleric as base

    https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...21/unknown.png

    I hope that you find out how far you present it.
    Last edited by Skidrow; 09-25-2017 at 04:45 AM.

  2. #17
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    So you went to base on to a single parse now?

    The rogue parse is 1.8m on that boss, but the neither of the primalist parse are the top primalist.

    You are again comparing the highest rogue parse to not the top primalists.

    You are again manipulating parse and you basically shrunk the entire thing down to a single parse where there's one rogue that somehow kept up with 2x primalists

    Why don't you base your stuff off your own guild too like this one?

    https://imgur.com/eKkL3Dq

    Using your very own guild's latest actual parse
    Primalist 1.95m dps
    vs
    Rogue 1.45m dps

    So looks like primalist is 33% stronger than rogue just from looking at different data point.

    Stop manipulating data.

    And why the 1.8m rogue not compared to the 1.95m dps primalist instead?

    Get it?
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Let's Talk about OP again?-.jpg  
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 09-25-2017 at 06:45 AM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    Using your very own guild's latest actual parse
    Primalist 1.95m dps
    vs
    Rogue 1.45m dps

    Get it?
    Over the past two weeks, our Guild run has focused on increasing the number of DPS capabilities for users who have not been in the DPS class.

    that's why I'm playing Heal or Chon and Marty playing Healer.

    Because during the time that we were obsessed with Record run, some users in our group felt that we didn't feel empathy for it.
    and we wanted players who play Healer or Tanker wanted to be interested in the play,

    Anyways, our records were not suitable for example.

    and there is some other reason, Rouge's DPS was too low, (they have still Eternal 6)
    and Our group have no highest Cleric DPS, and I didn't play DPS (on mage)

    that's why I put the picture (Trinity's ) as Example
    Last edited by Skidrow; 09-25-2017 at 07:39 AM.

  4. #19
    Soulwalker jsjoe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FateStayNight View Post
    So you went to base on to a single parse now?

    The rogue parse is 1.8m on that boss, but the neither of the primalist parse are the top primalist.

    You are again comparing the highest rogue parse to not the top primalists.

    You are again manipulating parse and you basically shrunk the entire thing down to a single parse where there's one rogue that somehow kept up with 2x primalists

    Why don't you base your stuff off your own guild too like this one?

    https://imgur.com/eKkL3Dq

    Using your very own guild's latest actual parse
    Primalist 1.95m dps
    vs
    Rogue 1.45m dps

    So looks like primalist is 33% stronger than rogue just from looking at different data point.

    Stop manipulating data.

    And why the 1.8m rogue not compared to the 1.95m dps primalist instead?

    Get it?
    Stop manipulating data Railshot.

    Let's Talk about OP again?-fireshot-capture-2-beruhast-00_01_-https___prancingturtle.com_encounter_playerdamagedone_19.jpg

    https://imgur.com/a/7ZjhR

    Let's Talk about OP again?-fireshot-capture-4-beruhast-00_01_-https___prancingturtle.com_encounter_playerdamagedone_19.jpg

    https://imgur.com/vepCjxH

    P.S. Trion plz fix CoA lvl 65 trinket -Assailant's Mark of Stratagems-
    someone using this bug item.
    Last edited by jsjoe; 09-25-2017 at 08:44 AM.
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  5. #20
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    If you would like to give constructive criticism, here's a helpful guide.

    https://personalexcellence.co/blog/c...ive-criticism/

  6. #21
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    It's hard to state these claims with concrete evidence because of the nature of the topic.

    For example you could take pure ST performance and use Beruhast as an the standard but in doing so you are likely favoring high burst specs since the fight lasts too little and most dps is focused around raid buffs/cool downs and individual cool downs. So that flaw can be pointed out by someone making the fight a bad standard.

    Then for the majority of fights another person could point out the fact that rogues have supreme cleave makes those fights a bad standard for measurement.

    Then there is the issue of not everyone uploading parses, different raid compositions, etc. which again skews results further.

    So using exact information is not actually ever going to be viable for comparing classes/specs for dps, the best that can be done is to paint a broad-strokes picture.

    If everyone is honest here we know the what the broadstrokes are: Prima is supreme overlord for ST performance atm and Rogue is excellent with st + cleave (though Prima's St performance is high enough that cleave almost doesn't matter)

    But broad-strokes doesn't cover everything. For instance according to the data presented for top 10, my alt would make it on the list for clerics w/o the final level of eternal.

    EDIT:
    Also to note, PT is severely lacking in data. From what I found the top cleric dps was on a short parse using SH inquis and if you know anything about inquis, it's a turret spec, so Beruhast is good for it (especially on such a short fight w/ not alot of time for any fires to come up to force movement).

    Lower parses (but still in top 10) are using inquis (but some are not SH specs) which should be red flag data wise when non-best specs make it into top 10 lists. Then there were shamans, and even a single druid that I found in the top 10 kill time kills. (But looking at the breakdown the druid was also wrong spec/ability breakdown).

    So again to the point: it's hard to draw an absolute conclusion from most any of the data here. For one the ST standard (beruhast) that is being used by some doesn't even have consistent data. There are multiple specs/raid comps/kill times that make the top 10 for even a single class (cleric). However on that fight inquis parses for cleric reign supreme (by a large margin).

    Then take Malanon, the top clerics are sham/inquis nearly 50/50. This data point goes directly against Beruhast ST data by saying that both specs are about equal (whereas Beruhast says that inquis is a good deal ahead).

    so basically the TL;DR is that it's not going to help anything to try and draw out concrete numbers from the data provided because there simply isn't enough data and there certainly isn't enough consistency in that data to support hard conclusions. At best we can say that what we see is one class pulling far ahead of others in some areas(Prima ST) while another class pulls ahead in another (Rogue ST + cleave). Beyond that it's hard to draw a conclusion.
    Last edited by Zehne; 09-25-2017 at 12:23 PM.

  7. #22
    Ascendant Zehne's Avatar
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    Immediately from the OP's spreadsheet there should be a red flag about the data w/o even needing to delve into it that deeply.

    For example lets take the Top Runners at the olympics, for example mens 100m in 2009. Even with a world record set that race at 9.58, and the slowest runner THAT race or 10.34 the tolerance of the times around the avg was ~~+/- 10%.

    So in a singular encounter you see a tight spread (as you should in a large scale competitive event) between the top 10.

    But the PT data doesn't even take the top 10 in an encounter, it takes the top 10 all time. And looking at the top 10 previous records in a single event (mens 100m sprint) you'll find that the tolerance around the average is ALOT tighter of a spread.

    So when you look at clerics and see a +27%/-12% spread around the average you should know immediately that the data isn't nearly consistent enough to draw a concrete conclusion.

    This whole thread is about competitive dps and class balance. We all know that it isn't balanced perfectly, but at the same time with the data provided there can be no hard number argument since even with the top 10's of each class the data isn't consistent at all.

    Say for example we picked a best fit line based on cleric dps being 100%. And by the data rogues are 20% ahead. So you nerf rogues by 20%.

    Now the Top rogue on Beruhast is doing only ~~1.44mil dps. Suddenly clerics all play 'the correct spec' for Beruhast and are now within (on avg) 10% of the highest parse. Now the average cleric is pulling 1.53mil dps which means that the average cleric is doing higher dps than the top rogue now.

    This because the data presented shows rogues as having a +13/-9% tolerance around their avg dps (for top 10) on Beruhast.

    Now immediately rogues QQ because the top rogue is 10% behind cleric and because you used a best fit line on inconsistent data to buff/nerf a class.

  8. #23
    Ewa
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    Default Get It Right

    It's true Primalist and Rogues are Over Powered Still
    Primalist more than Rogues.

    I'm a geared warrior in my guild and a lowered gear Primalist is out parsing me on a dummy. He has no eternal, no focus, poor essences, low cp, and really low fragments. I've 5/6 eternal weapon, all lvl 15 fragments except 2, all upgraded essences with BIS greater, CP soft capped, and newer melee trinket.
    It's extremely frustrating with all the work I have put into my rotation, gear, rep, going against a much lower gear Primalist.

    Trion- it feels unfair and deflating the class balance has not been solved now.

  9. #24
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    Have to agree with Fate and Zehne on this one. There isn't enough data being used and there are too many other factors in play that can skew that data. I'm not saying Primalists aren't OP in ST dps, and rogues in cleave dps, but if you want to present that in numbers, you're going to need to record the numbers from every log that goes up there for 3-4 weeks or longer.

    Other things that must be considered:
    • Eternal level
    • Raid composition
    • Gear/fragments
    • What specs are being played
    • Length of the fight- dummy parses are longer than some RoTP bosses.. and specs like 61NB are bursty every 30s and can be as much as 300k different depending when the boss dies.
    • RNG - this ties in with the length of the fight.

    The power creep in this expansion has ballooned out of control because of decisions that were made. This is only T1 and we're doing 10x the dps, or more, than T3 of NMT. It is going to be nearly impossible to balance classes because the numbers we're pulling are just too big.

  10. #25
    General of Telara aileen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Parkhyeyeon View Post
    Have to agree with Fate and Zehne on this one. There isn't enough data being used and there are too many other factors in play that can skew that data. I'm not saying Primalists aren't OP in ST dps, and rogues in cleave dps, but if you want to present that in numbers, you're going to need to record the numbers from every log that goes up there for 3-4 weeks or longer.

    Other things that must be considered:
    • Eternal level
    • Raid composition
    • Gear/fragments
    • What specs are being played
    • Length of the fight- dummy parses are longer than some RoTP bosses.. and specs like 61NB are bursty every 30s and can be as much as 300k different depending when the boss dies.
    • RNG - this ties in with the length of the fight.

    The power creep in this expansion has ballooned out of control because of decisions that were made. This is only T1 and we're doing 10x the dps, or more, than T3 of NMT. It is going to be nearly impossible to balance classes because the numbers we're pulling are just too big.
    Pretty much this, kept saying this on other thread but they refused to get this, while rogue is doing high dps its only 2 specs and both are melee, other specs are fairly behind of other classes as well and as you said 61NB's main source of dps is bursts from every 30sec while 54NB/22SAB is getting benefit of eternal proc itself, funny thing from rogue eternal its buffing certain abilities way too much like weapon procs, bombs and SOD and on the other side 61NB's main source of dps blazing strike doesn't get so much benefit and does almost same damage as previous tier eternal.

    Meanwhile healing is also result of eternal itself because like i mentioned on this bug report eternal proc added over main healing abilities like curative engine/restorative engine and cadence ticks, while cadence without proc does 11k ticks with eternal proc it does 41 42k ticks non crit not to mention omnox healing broken with eternal too but its not case of rogues doing high healing.

    As a rogue I prefer getting warrior eternal like proc over our current one but its personal choice:P

    While I agree classes should be balanced don't forget rogues using melee spec as top dps yea it can go half range but for full benefit it should be played on full melee range while mages clerics are having nice range options.

    In all expansions melee did more than range because range so much more room to use while melee sometimes can be more dangerous.

    Still I want class balance and as a rogue I can accept if we are getting 10% nerf but letting primalist stay like won't gonna happen, no matter what people can say top dps done this week was again primalist and did 1.97m and if we wanna compare classes we should compare same geared people and this given sample size is not enough to compare whole game as a unit, because there are some factors like crit rng/gear difference etc.
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  11. #26
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    Default Agreed

    This data can not be an accurate indicator.
    But I think it's enough material to say that Rift is not balancing now.
    *In fact, I wanted to hear the story of the underpower class and posted a post about their complaints being passed on to the developers.
    But I have just found a bigger error than the authenticity of the data in this article.
    It seems that selecting the title to talk about the Overpower class has rather failed to draw attention of underpower classes.
    Anyway, I agree with most of the comments, but I would like to have more conversations about the current Rift balancing rather than the reliability of the data.

  12. #27
    Champion of Telara Stihl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidrow View Post
    Anyway, I agree with most of the comments, but I would like to have more conversations about the current Rift balancing rather than the reliability of the data.
    At this point who even cares? Rift hasn't been balanced since 3.6, which is extremely frustrating because at the tail end of T2 (post Reaver and Ice Zerker nerfs) and early T3 the callings were as well balanced as they have ever been. Shadeborn, Rangersab, Druid, Maelstrom, etc leading into 4.0 with legendaries, eternals, planar fragments and the atrocious balance that has given us over the last ~18 months, I'm not sure how anyone can concern themselves with it anymore.

    While I appreciate the effort you put into gathering and displaying the data here, I agree it doesn't work for what you're trying to show. The fact that I'm still in the top 10 rogue parses for much of that data set for the fights I don't heal for tells me there just aren't enough good players with good gear uploading parses to draw conclusions from. I have garbage gear and I've been literally 1 button dps'ing for months now because there's almost no reason for me to do more than that.

    But there are some things you don't need good data points to see. It is pretty obvious Primalists are too good at single target and Rogues cleave too much. Another thing I know for sure is that Warriors really need their top spec to be usable on stuff like Priestess and Malannon. They haven't been able to use their best spec on the last boss of any raid instance released this expac.

    If it gets fixed; great. If it doesn't; whatever. At this point I'm pretty sure it's too little, too late. Worst part about it all is with what eternals and planar fragments have done to balance and the game, the raid content will never be engaging again. There is way too big of a gap between between max frags/eternals and the base requirements for an instance for them to ever be well tuned again. Not at least until 5.0 (if there is a 5.0 ) and they totally rework the system.

    Let's Talk about OP again?-ohgodwhy.gif

    Quote Originally Posted by Parkhyeyeon View Post
    The power creep in this expansion has ballooned out of control because of decisions that were made. This is only T1 and we're doing 10x the dps, or more, than T3 of NMT. It is going to be nearly impossible to balance classes because the numbers we're pulling are just too big.
    This makes me a bit sad. I think it was the right move to have larger gaps in power between tiers than they did in NMT like they were in vanilla/SL, but planar fragments and eternals were poorly thought out and WAY too strong to make those gaps relevant. Your armor page means almost nothing compared to your fragments and the level of your eternal weapon.
    Last edited by Stihl; 09-25-2017 at 06:57 PM.

  13. #28
    Plane Touched bollesti's Avatar
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    So can anyone confirm that the 54 22 NB at eternal 7 beats 61 NB eternal 7 ?
    Last edited by bollesti; 09-25-2017 at 08:46 PM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bollesti View Post
    So can anyone confirm that the 54 22 NB at eternal 7 beats 61 NB eternal 7 ?
    nope, 54/22 NB Elevated alot, from Eternal 7 Proc but.... 61NB is still better

    but not sure, If someone says 54 is better? lol coz I didn't practice much
    Last edited by Skidrow; 09-26-2017 at 01:23 AM.

  15. #30
    Plane Touched bollesti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skidrow View Post
    nope, 54/22 NB Elevated alot, from Eternal 7 Proc but.... 61NB is still better

    but not sure, If someone says 54 is better? lol coz I didn't practice much
    I myself never used it i hate the fact that now skill is no longer realy that important as of 3.6 to get good numbers...well not that 61 NB needs special skill to these days but still more thn this 54 22 sht...thx skid

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