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Thread: Suggestion about Soul/Class Balancing

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Lightbulb Suggestion about Soul/Class Balancing

    Hello everyone and in special hello Trion,

    I want to make a suggestion for the Class Balancing.
    It is since we can sped the points where we want a problem.
    Mostly, we are only playing 1-2 specs, because of two options:
    First: One spec is just too strong.
    Second: The others are too weak and changing something is really hard.

    So my question and suggestion is: why don´t go away from the System to mixing up souls and change it into only full skilled souls.

    PROS:
    - It would be much easier to balance everything
    - Because it will be easier to balancing, it will be possible to play every soul in dungeons

    CONS:
    - Mixed specs (for example Chlorobinger) will be gone (like Archon/harbinger already is).

    ABOUT THE FACT, THAT MANY PLAYERS WILL SAY, THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE KEY FEATURES OF RIFT AND THAT THIS IS A BAD SUGGESTION:
    I thought about it and it is right, that we will have lesser options for some mixing specs.
    But please think about it, what would happen to change it like this.
    If you are only allowed, to choose 61 (31 for Primalists) points for your main soul, this means for Trion, that it should be easier to balance everything as good as possible.
    I want to take an example for the current Primalist (without pure aoe souls):
    Currently, you have 3 dps possibilities (Dervish, Vulcanist, Maelstrom).
    Because of the Legendary system, it is even harder to scale and only the Dervish spec is viable.
    THAT MEANS, that only 1/3 (33%) can be used without being too far behind.

    Another Example for Mages (without pure aoe souls):
    You have 5 dps souls as possible choices (Elementalist, Necromancer, Pyromancer, Harbinger, Warlock).
    How much are you using or are able to use without beeing too far behind?
    It is only the Elementalist and when I am right informed also Warlock (don´t know the current status, because it got slightly nerfed or something... mage players could say more about it^^).
    That means you have 1 - 2 builds you can use, what means you are playing only 20 - 40% of the possible choices.

    Every Soul has it unique gameplay!
    So why don´t limit the soul system to only max souls (with 1 possible off soul (15 points / 8points for primalists)).
    Like I said, it woul be a way easier to balance it and as soon the balancing would be finished you will have more builds you could use than before.

    Just think about it.

    It wouldn´t mean, that one of the key features like the soul system is gone. It is only a possible solution to get the soul system work like it should be, which means that you can choose the soul (playstyle) you want and you are competitive to everything else.

    OFF SOUL:
    The offsoul you choose should only be a nice gimmick.
    For Primalists lets say you want a solo spec with decent cleave, good ST dps and it should be ranged?
    Choose as your main soul the Vulcanist and as your off soul the Preserver (to get a HoT, a despell and a simple healing channel).

    This is my suggestion to you, Trion, how you could get it balanced.
    Because with the legendary option with SFP you made it only harder for yourself to balance it.

    Now everyone, feel free to discuss it and let your opinion to something like that back in the comments.


    WITH BEST REGARDS
    Mallgar@typhiria & Malllgar@typhiria (2 Primalists)
    Guild: IMPERA - Deutsche Raidgilde
    Fragen zum Primalisten? Schreibt mich ingame an :-)

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple
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    WoW did it and I left WoW.
    If Rift did it, it would be the final nail in the coffin for me.
    I build specs based upon playstyle, not min maxing.
    The class Dev said in the balancing livestream that he has asked for this and they told him no.

    I have liked the freedom of choice the soul system has given me (even with the dev(s) trying to kill all the fun of hybrids).
    Co-GM of Haganai <Faeblight>
    GM of Filthy Casual <Gelidra>
    No more money for Trion til changes made

  3. #3
    Telaran
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    I personally dont like hybrid builds.
    I personal think, if i want to be a warlock, play warlock.
    If i want to do direct hardhitters, play pyromancer. If i want to go melee, play harbinger.
    Because of so many souls are the hybrids in my oppinion too hard to care about it (it will never be balanced in an acceptable percentage)

    But the main problem is the balance.
    It is for PvP and PvE.
    I think that Blizzard went the right way.
    You shouldn't forget, how much more possible ways (more money for more people) Blizzard has and even they can't handle it.

    Like I said, the choices of at least 1 off soul (or two) should be stay.
    This is more than WoW and still enough in my oppinion
    We could have so many more buiöds to play after that rework (but i think it won't change and the balancing won't get better anymore with all the legendary skills...)
    Last edited by Mallgar; 01-23-2017 at 08:29 AM.
    Mallgar@typhiria & Malllgar@typhiria (2 Primalists)
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    Fragen zum Primalisten? Schreibt mich ingame an :-)

  4. #4
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    Balancing is just about doing the math properly. You don't need to hard lock builds to do it and hard locking builds doesn't ensure doing it (see WoW's ridiculous numbers for the release of the current expansion). If you do the math right, things will come out pretty well balanced.

  5. #5
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    Telaran
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    Pfft! And give up the freedom of being able to tweak a toon the way you want it? What is that going to achieve?

    With the current active player crisis, and you would like to chase more players out of game, are you bloody nuts??

    You have choices. If you want a 61 soul X, then build it and enjoy.

    There are many choices for peeps to make and that is what the game is founded on. So, yeah, feel free to take away freedom of choice in a toon and many will walk away.

    Not what I would like to see happen...

  6. #6
    Ascendant
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    The problem with this is pretty much voiding the entire ascended soul design.

    Oh and WoW did it a long time ago and I hated it (and they only has 3 ****ing trees), but that's just me.
    I am sure there are plenty of people that doesn't mind turning Rift into a full on WoW clone as well. So I digress.
    Last edited by FateStayNight; 04-21-2017 at 02:48 PM.

  7. #7
    Plane Touched
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mallgar View Post
    snip....
    Its not hard to balance classes believe it or not. Even in Rift. That is not the goal of the class devs.. More like creating work loads to fix. That is why we only came close to balancing classes once in the last 3-4 years and even then procs were introduced that ruined balance so its not only class specific changes that ruin balance. Even if devs will make 61 or burst like WoW they will find ways to create priority in classes. Even if its a 1 to 1 designed souls some outside interaction will be developed to ruin the balance. So yeah.. there is no point in this.. If they were to consider doing this it would only be because it would create more of a work load that nets absolutely zilch net gains toward balance.

    Something is always tossed to a more favorable class in the end. What determines which class is the most favorable takes a lot of personal dissecting of rift streams and analyzing behaviors of the class devs when speaking about a class. You can tell, cleric was going to come out terrible in 4.1 about 3 months before the patch for instance if you actually saw the behavior and constantly side lining when cleric topics came up and you can tell by some changes they rather remove a playstyle than actually revamp it.. hence the near complete removal of synergy to legendary abilities by completely making the legendary useless in cleric. This is considered bandaiding but not actually fixing the problem.
    Last edited by Aedynn; 05-01-2017 at 02:54 AM.

  8. #8
    Soulwalker
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    Default :/

    Already seeing hordes of cookie cutter builds running around since SFP. I mean if you encounter mages in raids/dungeons/planar assaults 99% of the time they'll be pyros these days (use to be elementalists but then the nerfs..) ,
    primalists: Subcutters (use to be vulcanist til recent nerfs again) ,
    Warriors: Tempest
    Rogues: At least with them you'll see a bit of variation: Either Marksman or Sinsab
    Cleric: Inquisitor etc.

    My questions to devs is this: ( do we really just have these handfull of souls that are going to be viable in Rift (dps wise for PVE) from here on out. The other souls that use to be viable have now been nerfed to such an extend that they are basically disabled and not even on par with the other souls, and some of the souls have not been viable for a a very long time (such as the necromancer ,warlock etc ) you just see people using them on rare occasions in rvr or when they are so uber geared that those specs churn out decent damage despite their crappy base damage as it is.

    Isnt' the goal of having so many options, souls and specs available to choose from; that they should all be equally viable in their own way DPS wise and for raiding?

  9. #9
    Fia
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    Quote Originally Posted by bri bates View Post
    Balancing is just about doing the math properly. You don't need to hard lock builds to do it and hard locking builds doesn't ensure doing it (see WoW's ridiculous numbers for the release of the current expansion). If you do the math right, things will come out pretty well balanced.
    Balancing is a NP-complete problem, so it's not just a "doing math properly" thing ... V:
    Last edited by Fia; 06-03-2017 at 05:26 AM.
    Fiia@Typhiria | Asthea@Hailol
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  10. #10
    Telaran Rakuda88's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xarras View Post
    Already seeing hordes of cookie cutter builds running around since SFP. I mean if you encounter mages in raids/dungeons/planar assaults 99% of the time they'll be pyros these days (use to be elementalists but then the nerfs..) ,
    primalists: Subcutters (use to be vulcanist til recent nerfs again) ,
    Warriors: Tempest
    Rogues: At least with them you'll see a bit of variation: Either Marksman or Sinsab
    Cleric: Inquisitor etc.

    My questions to devs is this: ( do we really just have these handfull of souls that are going to be viable in Rift (dps wise for PVE) from here on out. The other souls that use to be viable have now been nerfed to such an extend that they are basically disabled and not even on par with the other souls, and some of the souls have not been viable for a a very long time (such as the necromancer ,warlock etc ) you just see people using them on rare occasions in rvr or when they are so uber geared that those specs churn out decent damage despite their crappy base damage as it is.

    Isnt' the goal of having so many options, souls and specs available to choose from; that they should all be equally viable in their own way DPS wise and for raiding?
    ^ This. Honestly it feels lately like we're in an mmo developed 20- and suspended 15- years ago with 3 roles and 1 class option to play (elf is healer, human is tank, etc. boolsheet)
    I don't know how our options for good performance got so narrowed down that people stopped caring about variety and ditched their play style and forsake in it all just to see dps digits and be generic drones.
    [believe "things" can still be saved with the power of communication and common sense]

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rakuda88 View Post
    ^ This. Honestly it feels lately like we're in an mmo developed 20- and suspended 15- years ago with 3 roles and 1 class option to play (elf is healer, human is tank, etc. boolsheet)
    I don't know how our options for good performance got so narrowed down that people stopped caring about variety and ditched their play style and forsake in it all just to see dps digits and be generic drones.
    One of the chief causes is previous raid design. Most NT raid bosses, especially T3, had extremely steep dps checks at release. You HAD to run either the best or 2nd best build for your class, unless you already had BiS pre-raid gear and a perfect rotation going into it.

    Because there's such a huge disparity between the highest dps specs and the "average" ones, the average were pretty much thrown away by the endgame playerbase. Granted this has always been the case since progression raiding's inception, but it got really, really bad during NT. Entire guilds broke up because they couldn't make dps checks on certain bosses, meaning they couldn't progress for that tier (because modern Trion loves linear raid design).

    I've been saying this for literally years now, but one of the (many) things Trion needs to do to fix their game is to shift the focus away from dps checks and towards creative, meaningful mechanics. I haven't touched the game in months, but based on what I've read about iRoTP, they seem to have just gone back to the high dps check meta. This, in turn, breeds the "i need to run the highest dps spec I can to ensure my gulid can complete the content" mentality. It's a shame really.

    I'm not saying balance isn't an issue, or that each class only has like 2 or 3 specs that can actually hit dps checks for the current raid, but it would certainly matter far less if the content weren't built around a spreadsheet.

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple Archaoss's Avatar
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    Tbh by removing the mixing of souls you are talking about removing the core attraction from Rift, this was one of the the biggest selling point of the game then and still now.

    I mean this idea is along the same lines as simply copy pasting all the souls across the board from each class, sure it would make balancing a cake walk but jesus it would suddenly loose any serious player base... besides being mind numbingly boring.

    If you want a good idea on how to make balancing easier you start by reducing the numbers, both at a stat level, bring all the dps down to double digits again. Its something they have done before but might be time to do that again.

    DPS and HPS checks are one form of mechanic, far from being the only one, and in NMT they were hard but not impossible. To say loads of guilds broke up because of it isn't entirely true, I'm not saying it didn't happen but why is probably more than just this.

    Do they need to shift away from this? no.

    Hitting and succeeding with both checks is a matter of knowing your class, getting geared and learning the fight. Some bosses are harder than others and some aren't things you are meant to clear month 1, they are things you are meant to build toward... if you need BIS gear to do this then so be it but why then are there players who clear this with entry gear?

    I mean this expansion is easy, most guilds cleared the first three bosses in iROTP in the first week of release. And I'm glad they increased the enrage on the last one, without which most people would be farming that raid already and complaining normal mode TD isn't out.

    There is nothing wrong with seeking out the better spec and practicing it, and its rewarding once you've mastered it.

    What they do need however is to make a soul for each class which is easy to play and able to obtain respectable output, rather than 2 button specs that come and go. IF you are an experienced player and you want to move on to one of the more complicated souls / specs then you should be rewarded with a higher output.

    But by playing one of these easier souls i don't think this should automatically entitle you to complete all content at all levels, i mean sure you can mind the red and interrupt this but if you don't want to learn the specs why play at all?

    The part i do agree with is that balancing has gone out the window for a while, and this is down to this massive raft of changes... which has left some souls and roles broken and forgotten.

    What's required to fix it?
    Time and people.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Apologies, the above isn't picking on people specifically just subjects.
    Last edited by Archaoss; 06-25-2017 at 10:28 AM.
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  13. #13
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Boxsmith View Post
    One of the chief causes is previous raid design. Most NT raid bosses, especially T3, had extremely steep dps checks at release. You HAD to run either the best or 2nd best build for your class, unless you already had BiS pre-raid gear and a perfect rotation going into it.

    Because there's such a huge disparity between the highest dps specs and the "average" ones, the average were pretty much thrown away by the endgame playerbase. Granted this has always been the case since progression raiding's inception, but it got really, really bad during NT. Entire guilds broke up because they couldn't make dps checks on certain bosses, meaning they couldn't progress for that tier (because modern Trion loves linear raid design).

    I've been saying this for literally years now, but one of the (many) things Trion needs to do to fix their game is to shift the focus away from dps checks and towards creative, meaningful mechanics. I haven't touched the game in months, but based on what I've read about iRoTP, they seem to have just gone back to the high dps check meta. This, in turn, breeds the "i need to run the highest dps spec I can to ensure my gulid can complete the content" mentality. It's a shame really.

    I'm not saying balance isn't an issue, or that each class only has like 2 or 3 specs that can actually hit dps checks for the current raid, but it would certainly matter far less if the content weren't built around a spreadsheet.
    Actually, neither TD nor iRoTP have very tight dps checks, especially with more eternals. I, personally, like dps checks, however, I prefer when they are part of the mechanics. Fights like Beruhast where you sit there and hit a boss for less than 2 minutes aren't fun. There's experts more mechanically challenging.

    With Rift, Trion has catered to those that aren't willing to work for the reward. And by extension, their attention to quality has seemed to follow.
    R.I.P.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched Poshy's Avatar
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    I consistently use 5-6 builds on my rogue. 3 of them are viable in end game raiding just as a dpser, most feel there is one great rogue heal build but I have 3 and use them all. There are alot of options still. My mage alt has 4 builds that are all pretty useful imo, not sure about other classes but i see most raiders using different roles situationally. To me this is one of the best aspects of this game and I still think there are builds to be discovered.

  15. #15
    Ascendant Artewig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poshy View Post
    I consistently use 5-6 builds on my rogue. 3 of them are viable in end game raiding just as a dpser, most feel there is one great rogue heal build but I have 3 and use them all. There are alot of options still. My mage alt has 4 builds that are all pretty useful imo, not sure about other classes but i see most raiders using different roles situationally. To me this is one of the best aspects of this game and I still think there are builds to be discovered.
    I have 3 tank specs, 6-7 dps specs, 4 heal specs, 1 support spec and then a couple miscellaneous specs for open world and what not.

    I will say that I had ~20 consistently used builds during Nightmare Tide, then again, I don't really pvp anymore and I had a bunch of pvp builds in NT.
    Last edited by Artewig; 06-25-2017 at 08:17 PM.
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