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Thread: Beastmaster needs so QoL changes

  1. #1
    Ascendant DarkDaemon's Avatar
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    Default Beastmaster needs so QoL changes

    Can we please get some developer response on what's happening with beastmaster? We were told that there would be some work on BM quality of life, but there's been nothing from Vladd in months.

    Here are some disparities between beastmaster and archon at the moment:

    - Beastmaster requires 54 points to get all essential buffs and CDs, while Archon requires 40, making hybridization more friendly and far easier
    - Harbchon DPS is currently significantly higher than both 48 BM and 54 BM DPS, and is much more friendly to target swapping, cleave and killing adds (such as crystals on Uruluuk)
    - Most archon variants have an AOE cleanse
    - Archons have 5 minute long phys and non-phys debuffs (illuminate = spotter's call so that's not an issue)
    - Archons can spec into a large variety of utility, including reflects and mana drains

    Beastmaster is vastly inferior to Archon in most departments. The only things that it brings to a raid are Command to Stand Ground, a strong defensive raid CD with a very, very long cooldown, a spammable purge, and a raid wide DPS CD instead of the small area of lava field. It takes a dozen GCDs to set up, and on top of all that, BM generally is severely power starved. Even in a raid setting, with both an energy buff and verse of joy, I personally find myself starved.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________

    Beastmaster needs some general QoL improvements and a wider niche.

    If it's meant to be played for the defensive cooldowns, reduce the debuff time on Command to Stand Ground and Command to Recover. Command to Stand Ground is around the same level of other powerful defensive CDs, like Ablative Coil or Flame of Life, yet it can only be used once every 5 minutes. Although it's relatively low in the tree, it's one of the few reasons to actually use a Beastmaster, and so it shouldn't be usable only once or twice during an encounter. This is even more true for Command to Recover. An extra 15% healing taken is much weaker than most defensive CDs, yet it has a 5 minute long debuff.

    Beastmaster also needs a QoL improvement to target swapping. It takes far too long to set up all your DoTs on a target, to the point where 2 to 3 minutes parses on a dummy are inaccurate, because it took 20 seconds to get things up. A one minute CD that applies all BM bleeds and DoTs would allow us to both get things started and easily swap targets.

    An energy recovery mechanic would also be nice (in the place of the useless Guardianship or Primal Heal). Using procs and having a higher crit rate should not punish a player.

    EDIT: If someone that has the power to do so sees this, could you please change the so in the title to some? Typo
    Last edited by DarkDaemon; 08-18-2015 at 06:09 AM.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Solaxys's Avatar
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    First, I would not expect any changes to be through the pipeline anytime soon. With Primalist, T3 raids, and RB buffs/rework - I doubt Vladd will have the time.
    Do I think it needs a few tweaks and one-ups? Sure. Do I see it happening? No.
    Moreover, lot of the points you made to induce QoL changes don't really address the concerns you have with the soul (for which to be addressed, you need to revamp it).

    Second, I think we are at a point we cannot compare BM to Archon, just because they have buffs that override each other (and if we use that logic, almost all souls can be compared to archon since they bring buffs that get overwritten as well). Perhaps a while back, but now they are just drastically different in what they bring to the table, its not so much of an either or than a "do you need both and if not which one will be best for the situation".

    With that in mind,
    1. 54 BM is almost never worth it. If you want to do 54 BM, you go for 58 BM, as the DPS loss is negligible and the gain for the raid is noticeable. However, the DPS loss for both from 48 BM is huge, in that it is really not worth replacing a Reaver for. So that means Archon at the same tier would bring the crit buff, while BM would bring more utility (purge/d-cds/stronger DPS CD), whatever you might need. It's a trade-off, and its fine; there is no need for every soul to have access to everything in a similar way. Then what is the point of picking or having a choice.

    2. That has nothing to do with archon has a soul and more to do with how harbinger is. We should ask for Paragon buffs to compensate, not BM buffs.

    3. We have a spammable purge on 1s GCD, that is on-hit (bypasses many mechanics), and no castime. There is rarely a time when you need an AoE cleanse from a support soul (en large, of course in NT, you need it for two counters) but you definitely would love a support soul to carry a unhindered purge.

    4. Bard/Oracle can maintain it or as I said BM augments Archon (vice versa); I am not sure why you want 5 min debuff setups on BM where you are already starved for GCDs when it comes to DPS.

    5. Again that is really not the benefit of the Archon soul; you are practically comparing the flexibility of a mage to a warrior (just cause they have access to reflects, mana drains etc... in other souls at such an early break point). Technically if you want "mana drain", go up RB to pick up the AoE finisher that drains mana/energy. Either way, that is still not something you can fix by tweaking BM; you would need to tweak the whole class.

    ~
    BM has Enrage. I am surprised how many people undervalue that CD. It is one of the strongest CDs in the game (Short of the 5 and 2 min ones) since it is a multiplicative factor to everything. It's not the area of effect in comparison to Lava Field, its just how much more powerful Enrage is.
    Defensive CDs help with progression significantly, and add a lot of value there. It deflates as you gear out the content, but that initial push - definitely do without the not. Though I agree, CtR CD should be reduced, +15% healing is not that powerful to warrant a 5 min CD.
    [CtSG should keep the 5 min CD]

    As for "set-up", it should only take you 4 GCDs, 5 with CtA if you are casting it. From there in, every ability you cast will have a positive net worth for your DPS. I think you are falling into the trap everyone falls into that DoTs don't do damage, they are just means to an end - i.e setting up VO, and BS. That is frankly untrue, your DoTs are just as important for damage % as your BS/VO. Set them up incorrectly, and your DPS will be paltry.

    BM has no power issues if played properly in a raid setting with points in the right places.
    Check your points in branch and your rotation priority if you are. I played with 0 points in Ties That Bind, and I barely tank at 0 energy like 4 or 5s before VoJ comes up. With 1 point in there, it lines up with VoJ; 2 points = never energy starved.

    ~
    I still don't understand how it takes 20s to set up BM.
    As for target swapping, yes we could use a instant set-up button but no one wants another Reaver, DoT management is fine.
    Moreover, if you feel like a target won't last 1/2 duration of all your DoTs after you set them up, then: you keep to your main target, use minimum DoT application [TC, FR, Pet DoT, SS --- 2 GCDs] and then start VB/BS, or don't use BM if none of that is possible. You don't need to set up ALL your DoTs for BM to be effective; they hit harder than your typical DPS buttons, but if they aren't gonna tick down all the way, then you prioritize quick setup and execution.

    Again energy is fine.

    ~
    The one thing I think might be interesting to do with BM is remove the cap on DoT scaling for VB/BS in PVE (ONLY, not PVP). The abilities take all current BM (and only BM) DoTs by the player in play and scale. This might alleviate the two target/target swap issues.
    1. Your abilities scale if two long-lasting mobs and oyu hit harder
    2. If one of them is temporary (like 2nd boss GP's add), then you can maintain your DoTs on the main boss and just damage the add without setting up DoTs.

    But shrugs, will be incredibly difficult to code.

  3. #3
    Ascendant DarkDaemon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaxys View Post
    First, I would not expect any changes to be through the pipeline anytime soon. With Primalist, T3 raids, and RB buffs/rework - I doubt Vladd will have the time.
    Do I think it needs a few tweaks and one-ups? Sure. Do I see it happening? No.
    Moreover, lot of the points you made to induce QoL changes don't really address the concerns you have with the soul (for which to be addressed, you need to revamp it).

    Second, I think we are at a point we cannot compare BM to Archon, just because they have buffs that override each other (and if we use that logic, almost all souls can be compared to archon since they bring buffs that get overwritten as well). Perhaps a while back, but now they are just drastically different in what they bring to the table, its not so much of an either or than a "do you need both and if not which one will be best for the situation".

    With that in mind,
    1. 54 BM is almost never worth it. If you want to do 54 BM, you go for 58 BM, as the DPS loss is negligible and the gain for the raid is noticeable. However, the DPS loss for both from 48 BM is huge, in that it is really not worth replacing a Reaver for. So that means Archon at the same tier would bring the crit buff, while BM would bring more utility (purge/d-cds/stronger DPS CD), whatever you might need. It's a trade-off, and its fine; there is no need for every soul to have access to everything in a similar way. Then what is the point of picking or having a choice.
    I strongly disagree. 2 or 3 points in flowing strikes is quite a gain to personal DPS, while call of the forest barely affects anyone at the moment (just inquisitors and chloromancers, really).

    You're wrong on enrage being the stronger CD. It scales better, and stacks very well with other raid CDs and a crit pot, but alone, lava field is the bigger gain. You can see this in the BiS spreadsheet. The advantage of enrage is really just not having to stack, and that it's unique.

    I don't know about you, but I'm getting flesh rip and vicious opportunity procs faster than they come off CD most of the time. In raid, I generally have to pop energy pots between verse of joys, and even then, I'm occasionally starved. It's ridiculous that BM has more energy issues the higher geared you are.

    It's not really 'which one is better for the situation' at the moment. It's more 'do we need a spam purge' and 'can none of you filthy mages really not archon'. BM is pretty much always a second choice, a last resort nowadays.

    20 seconds is an exaggeration, but I don't think you'd disagree that BM is terrible at target swapping and has longer set up time than almost every other spec. On pull, you have - 3 stacks of cutting slash, command to attack, enrage, twin cuts, soul sickness, tearing slash, one use of fierce strike for fierce wounds if you're in a higher BM build before everything is up. You'd certainly need around 15 seconds before you're at max DPS.
    Last edited by DarkDaemon; 08-18-2015 at 08:22 AM.

  4. #4
    Ascendant Solaxys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDaemon View Post
    I strongly disagree. 2 or 3 points in flowing strikes is quite a gain to personal DPS, while call of the forest barely affects anyone at the moment (just inquisitors and chloromancers, really).
    Well that is up to you to disagree.
    I played BM for a long time and I am just speaking from experience. I have compared 54 and 58 BM iterations over ~200 parses for data-logging with/for devs and otherwise; I know what I am talking about. You only need 2 points in FS either way.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDaemon View Post
    You're wrong on enrage being the stronger CD. It scales better, and stacks very well with other raid CDs and a crit pot, but alone, lava field is the bigger gain. You can see this in the BiS spreadsheet. The advantage of enrage is really just not having to stack, and that it's unique.
    Why would anyone use Lava Field alone or Enrage alone? The BiS spreadsheet is riddled with inconsistencies, and its no fault to the authors, there are just some nuances that are hard to simulate on an excel spreadsheet. If you are going by that in deciding which is more valuable and/or how to DPS, well... there is no point in having a conversation.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDaemon View Post
    I don't know about you, but I'm getting flesh rip and vicious opportunity procs faster than they come off CD most of the time. In raid, I generally have to pop energy pots between verse of joys, and even then, I'm occasionally starved. It's ridiculous that BM has more energy issues the higher geared you are.
    Huh? Well then there is your problem. Don't use FR and VO in a macro. #thread. If you are repeatedly reapplying FR as it procs, then you are obviously going to plummet in energy, especially with power manipulation also going.
    Moreover that is a DPS loss (unless you get ridiculously lucky) since FR should be treated like any other DoT, and prioritized to snapshot.


    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDaemon View Post
    It's not really 'which one is better for the situation' at the moment. It's more 'do we need a spam purge' and 'can none of you filthy mages really not archon'. BM is pretty much always a second choice, a last resort nowadays.
    If your BM does 75%-80% DPS of Reaver, then Enrage is worth it for the raid/boss, and should use that BM instead of Reaver with an Archon
    If your BM cannot, then go with Archon and use warrior as DPS.
    Typically in 10 mans, you wanna go Archon cause of DPS, but I used BM in iGP HM and it was fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by DarkDaemon View Post
    20 seconds is an exaggeration, but I don't think you'd disagree that BM is terrible at target swapping and has longer set up time than almost every other spec. On pull, you have - 3 stacks of cutting slash, command to attack, enrage, twin cuts, soul sickness, tearing slash, one use of fierce strike for fierce wounds if you're in a higher BM build before everything is up. You'd certainly need around 15 seconds before you're at max DPS.
    BM is terrible at target swapping, but its not NOT possible. Unless there's like rapid target switching, BM actually is okay if you can time transitions. As I said above, there are ways to circumvent BM swapping.
    As for your latter bit, well that is what a bleed-oriented soul will be. Just like Warlock, it'll take time to get the burst rolling. If you are not comfortable with it, then don't play Beastmaster.
    Asking for a pure soul revamp on the basis that you don't like its gameplay is rather self-centered.

    I mean, an "Easy fix" to make it burst, I guess; is not to set up all your DoTs - set up 3 CS + TC, and then use your VB/VO/BS + CtA/FR/Enrage until CtA is just about to fall off, then set up the rest of your DoTs to snapshot them. You only need 5 dots to burst, and two of them are passive/o-GCD (pet DoT + FR), so you can start bursting right away if you want. It's not optimal for sustained DPS, but if the fight is burst-centric, it should be okay.

    Also Fierce Strike is a conditional DPS gain; using it all the time to keep the pet buff up is a DPS loss.

    And as I said, all I replied to was IN THE CONSIDERATION that BM changes will PROBABLY NOT come as it stands.
    If BM changes were on the plate, then sure there are a lot of things I have ideas for. But its not a possibility, so make do with what you got.
    Last edited by Solaxys; 08-18-2015 at 09:30 AM.

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