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Thread: Must have Tank/Healer/CC

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    Soulwalker Tictic-boom's Avatar
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    Default Must have Tank/Healer/CC

    I am hoping they are carefull in the balance to ensure there is one must have Tank/healer/CC class. Making the other classes being the other guys in a group.

    If they build a pure tankers tank, healing healer etc then you end up with a situation where groups will demand that class at the expense of other similar classes.

    As an example, LOTRO must have in high end instances a Guardian and a Minstril. They are design the best at what they do with other warrior types relegated to off tank or healers to secondary.

    I know in the end there always be a better tank and healer but I am hoping that the good enoughs are truly near the others so groups will not demand one over the other.

    Does that make sense out there.

    Cheers

  2. #2
    Rift Disciple Tevesh's Avatar
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    In most games there is a more dedicated healing/tanking/buff class, yeah. However, in rift this issue is like half-eliminated by the soul system, that means that if you want to play a dps-style tank which might not handle tanking the harder heroic or raid content, you dont limit yourself. You might as well get the paladin soul too and switch to it as the situation dictates, and carry a shield in your bags for that case. Anyway, the balance here is tricky. You may add tanking abilities to the dps tank classes, but what is the point of having a dedicated tank class then? You may trivialise the content enough for it to be tanked by a mage, but what is the point of even doing it then both for the players and developers?

    All in all, they are probably going to make the harder stuff being tank-able only by the dedicated tanking classes like paladin/void knight, and not even bother themselves with making dps-tanks able to tank raids and such. Why would they, you can always switch between the classes for various goals in the raid, depending on your spot and the encounter.

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    Soulwalker Tictic-boom's Avatar
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    Of course swapping out souls makes this less a problem. I am just curios how hard switching will be. I have gathered it seems easy but there has been mention of having to go to a certain person to switch out, and it costs to do so.

    I am just worried that if you make one class a pure tank then it will be a have too class and make it a must play for a portion of the player base.

    A healing tank like a paladin should be able to tank similiar to a more DPS tank becasue they are both hybrids. I am not saying have the mage able to tank, I am saying have a few of the tank choices close enough in tanking ability that more then one is viable to preform that role.

    I hope not to hear LF "uber tank class" only for "dungeon x" run. I would rather hear, looking for fighter for "dungeon x" so players who feel the need to fill such roles are not limited to having to take that one soul chain for game content.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple Tevesh's Avatar
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    You are going to have 4 profiles in which you can store your builds and then switch between them at wish while out of combat. Think of tactics sets from WAR if you played it. Changing the contents of the profile, however, would require you to visit the npc in a city and pay s 'small' fee. Nothing particular about it.

    A healing tank like a paladin should be able to tank similiar to a more DPS tank becasue they are both hybrids.
    Uhm, no, this is not about Rift. You might want to have a read at the classes, as paladin has no healing here, but is focused on riposting damage and blocking with a shield instead. Think of a guard from aoc and eq2, or prot war or something.

    I hope not to hear LF "uber tank class" only for "dungeon x" run. I would rather hear, looking for fighter for "dungeon x" so players who feel the need to fill such roles are not limited to having to take that one soul chain for game content.
    Of course the 'proper' balance of the tank classes is a more diverse and fun way to play it, but I, frankly, highly doubt Rift will function this way. At the very best I think the one-group content would be tankable by almost any tank class, while the raids will have a huge diversity of tanking roles that might require a dps-type tank. Say, most of the bosses will have lots of adds which are better picked up and tanked by such a tank due to his aoe dps/aggro capabilities, or the named will have spell-based dps which will require a void knight tanking, and so on.

  5. #5
    Soulwalker Tictic-boom's Avatar
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    ooops,

    my bad on the paladin, being old school, I just flash back to classic definitions.

    Still fairly new and not completely absorbed all the info, its a lot. Lots of new stuff, which makes me excited about the game.

  6. #6
    Telaran AhkoRevari's Avatar
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    Personally the way I look at it/hope for is this: Each calling has a soul that CAN tank. Meaning Mages and Rogues CAN tank at least Mediocre to higher end group instances. I dont believe however that They should be able to effectively tank Raid bosses. Thus that would most likely leave either a Pure Paladin, Pure Reaver, or Paladin/Reaver Mix the most viable option.

    As far as Healing Im assuming is similar. Rogues can acquire the "Bard" soul, which involves buffs and healing. It is possible that a dedicated Bard Rogue may be able to scratch by healing a small group, but definably not a main raid healer. However as anyone will tell you, heals are heals, where as tanking is a different scenario.

  7. #7
    Rift Disciple Tevesh's Avatar
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    I guess it will be more in line of 2 hybrid healing classes having enough power to heal through a heroic instance or something. Say, bard + cloro could pull off healing a group instance, or chloro + reaver's self-heals or something.

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    Rift Chaser Song's Avatar
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    Going from the various Q&A's it does look like there may well be cookie cutter style set ups but, like EQ, you can complete content with any setup just have to be more creative in doing so.

    Really hoping that's the case, hate the 'you must have X class or you will fail' mentality or, like LotRO, poor design choice

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    Rift Disciple Gurgle's Avatar
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    It's going to be rather what you can contribute to the group rather than what your role will be. There's so many more souls planned that it will be hard to define "best set up". Raiding ofcourse will be another deal, there you should have definite roles that you do, but the extra specs allow you to switch to a raid spec ( yeah im calling them specs).

    I doubt the normal rifts require a certain group composition, unless there's alot of people then you might need a tank/ healer because the monsters are said to increase in strength as people flow in the rift area.

    Why do ducks have webbed feet?...To stamp out fires

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    Rift Disciple Banditman's Avatar
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    I'm going to disagree with most of the folks on the forums when I say that I hope there are a number of heroic dungeons which "require" certain configurations. Why?

    1. Because of the Rift Soul System, there is absolutely no reason NOT to require certain things. Any Warrior "can" have a Champion soul. Any Cleric "can" have a Sentinel soul. For that reason alone, requiring certain setups is, in my opinion, not only "ok", but in fact, desired.

    2. Additionally, if you set things up in such a way that "anyone" can do it, the game will be ridiculously easy. Easy games, where anyone can win in any situation with any setup, don't hold anyone's attention for very long. There need to be things that only very limited sets of skills will prevail, and figuring out those parameters should be part of the challenge.

  11. #11
    Ascendant
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    Though I agree with that to an extent... at the same time you have to make sure that each of the Souls at least gets their one little moment in the spotlight, so to speak (either for a specific dungeon, encounter etc) where they can really feel useful. Personally speaking I think it would be a real shame to have 8 Souls per calling... and yet only have two or three of them ever be desirable passed a certain point in the game even though people have the option to switch out of said undesirable Souls.
    Last edited by Kedon; 10-21-2010 at 06:35 AM.

  12. #12
    Ascendant Oggiefishier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tictic-boom View Post
    Of course swapping out souls makes this less a problem. I am just curios how hard switching will be. I have gathered it seems easy but there has been mention of having to go to a certain person to switch out, and it costs to do so.

    I am just worried that if you make one class a pure tank then it will be a have too class and make it a must play for a portion of the player base.

    A healing tank like a paladin should be able to tank similiar to a more DPS tank becasue they are both hybrids. I am not saying have the mage able to tank, I am saying have a few of the tank choices close enough in tanking ability that more then one is viable to preform that role.

    I hope not to hear LF "uber tank class" only for "dungeon x" run. I would rather hear, looking for fighter for "dungeon x" so players who feel the need to fill such roles are not limited to having to take that one soul chain for game content.

    from what i've gathered it will be similar to wows multi spec system.. you can save 4 builds of the various sould you have aquired. you can then swap between these 4 builds as you wish as long as you are not in combat.. to change one of your builds or *respec* one of the builds you would have to go to a class trainer and buy a respec.for one of the builds which you could then change to whatever you wanted and then lock that build in.
    And Shepard's we shall be for thee my lord for thee, power hath descendant forth from thy hand, may our feet swiftly carry on thy command, so we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be

    In nomeni Patri et Filii et Spiritus Sancti.

  13. #13
    Ascendant Oggiefishier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Banditman View Post
    I'm going to disagree with most of the folks on the forums when I say that I hope there are a number of heroic dungeons which "require" certain configurations. Why?

    1. Because of the Rift Soul System, there is absolutely no reason NOT to require certain things. Any Warrior "can" have a Champion soul. Any Cleric "can" have a Sentinel soul. For that reason alone, requiring certain setups is, in my opinion, not only "ok", but in fact, desired.

    2. Additionally, if you set things up in such a way that "anyone" can do it, the game will be ridiculously easy. Easy games, where anyone can win in any situation with any setup, don't hold anyone's attention for very long. There need to be things that only very limited sets of skills will prevail, and figuring out those parameters should be part of the challenge.
    gear will be a major factor in this . tank gear will be different than dps gear. healing gear will have different stats more desirable for healers than the caster dps gear.. this alone in wow has mitigated what i thought would be the same problem your aluding to here. along with the build you will need the gear to back it up.. aka trying to tank in dps gear will get you stomped flat in one shot regardless of your spec..no healer would be able to keep you alive at the proper level. a healer in dps gear is going to go oom 1/2 way threw the fight etc etc.

    alot of what i said is a personal assumption based on the available information. but to me it makes sence as a proven way to allow the multiple build design rift is incorporating while still having consequences for your choices.
    And Shepard's we shall be for thee my lord for thee, power hath descendant forth from thy hand, may our feet swiftly carry on thy command, so we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be

    In nomeni Patri et Filii et Spiritus Sancti.

  14. #14
    Soulwalker Holdyir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tictic-boom View Post
    I am hoping they are carefull in the balance to ensure there is one must have Tank/healer/CC class. Making the other classes being the other guys in a group.

    If they build a pure tankers tank, healing healer etc then you end up with a situation where groups will demand that class at the expense of other similar classes.

    As an example, LOTRO must have in high end instances a Guardian and a Minstril. They are design the best at what they do with other warrior types relegated to off tank or healers to secondary.

    I know in the end there always be a better tank and healer but I am hoping that the good enoughs are truly near the others so groups will not demand one over the other.

    Does that make sense out there.

    Cheers
    I guess i'm confused, all content in lotro has been tanked without guards(have done most of it on my warden) and have done raids with only rune keepers healing. You don't need to have specifically a guard and a mini for anything in lotro. Having multiple options in which to tank and heal(and dps/offtank/support) in games is nothing but a great thing. Choices are good. I for the most part agree with what you are saying about tanks/healers being close together, they should, however lotro is kind of a bad example as it has this currently.

  15. #15
    Soulwalker Epicurus's Avatar
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    I guess from what I have read you will still have your tradition roles for each archetype. The healer will still be a best healer in game but if a particular situation needs extra heals a tank can spec into a couple heal spells to help out or if a tank is soloing he might want to put a few points into a dps soul. You are not going to find a tank that will be out healing a healing class form what I understand.

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