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Thread: Nightmare Tide Tanking Spreadsheet

  1. #1
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Default Nightmare Tide Tanking Spreadsheet

    I've finished my spreadsheet, which compares the effective health and required worst-case healing of the five tanking specs in raid test gear. I've also include some variants of certain specs.

    You can find it here.

    If you see any errors, please let me know. It's possible that I made a mistake somewhere in my calculations, or overlooked a modifier.

    Most people are probably just going to want to scroll down to the "Results" section, unless you want to examine the calculations that were used to reach them.

    (Don't bother looking at the "Balance Experiments" tab of the spreadsheet, though. That's where I try plugging in different numbers to see what it would take to balance specs more closely, and as a result the numbers that you see on that spreadsheet do not match how things actually function in-game.)

    Special thanks to:
    • Vladd
    • Kervik
    • Primalthirst
    • Desdenova
    • Adastra
    • Roughraptors
    • Carinae
    Last edited by Muspel; 12-19-2014 at 01:16 PM.

  2. #2
    Plane Walker
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    From a quick glance over of the spreadsheet the tank EHP hierarchy looks like this to me:

    RS>Paladin>Justicar>Arbiter>VK


    VK is looking mighty horrible on that spreadsheet >.<

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    Plane Touched Kallig's Avatar
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    Very disappointing... I love the concept and playstyle of the Void Knight and it saddens me that it is so far behind everyone else . IMO it is much more interesting than the Paladin, the Reaver was previously my favorite warrior tank but alas that is now no longer an option. Seems like Vladd is saying "You're going to run Paladin and you're going to ****ing like it!"

  4. #4
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallig View Post
    Very disappointing... I love the concept and playstyle of the Void Knight and it saddens me that it is so far behind everyone else . IMO it is much more interesting than the Paladin, the Reaver was previously my favorite warrior tank but alas that is now no longer an option. Seems like Vladd is saying "You're going to run Paladin and you're going to ****ing like it!"
    There are planned changes to Void Knight. All this means is that we now know exactly how much it needs.

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    Plane Touched Kallig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    There are planned changes to Void Knight. All this means is that we now know exactly how much it needs.
    Good to know

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    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Thank you for the spreadsheet, just got one question.

    I see 7% for passive damage reduction for Phys, Non-Phys and Spell for Arbiter.
    Shouldn't it be 8%?
    5% from Stormcaller's High Voltage and 3% from Arbiter's Arcane Shielding.
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  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    Thank you for the spreadsheet, just got one question.

    I see 7% for passive damage reduction for Phys, Non-Phys and Spell for Arbiter.
    Shouldn't it be 8%?
    5% from Stormcaller's High Voltage and 3% from Arbiter's Arcane Shielding.
    Right you are. Fixed.

    That being said, lowering High Voltage to 4% mitigation would probably make sense, since it puts Arbiter's physical EH almost exactly on par with Justicar and Riftstalker.
    Last edited by Muspel; 11-08-2014 at 02:22 PM.

  8. #8
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Updated the spreadsheet for the warrior changes in the hotfix.

    Observations:
    • Paladin has gone from being fairly overpowered at physical damage to being INCREDIBLY overpowered at tanking physical damage. On top of that, it is now the best tank in the game for non-physical damage. Unless there are incoming buffs for the other tanks to put them on par, this is not the change that was needed.
    • Void Knight is an absolute monster now. It has the second-highest physical and non-physical EH in the game, and is only surpassed by the even-more-overpowered Paladin. I'm also very concerned about the new Rift Shield, which is arguably the best cooldown in the game.
    • Spell EH is still pretty uneven across the board.
    Last edited by Muspel; 11-12-2014 at 10:17 AM.

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser Xentex's Avatar
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    I have a math question regarding the spreadsheet.

    When you calculate the total mitigation you do it multiplicatively, so (1 - passive DR) x (1 - active DR) etc. I assume that's actually the way it works.

    When you put those DR numbers in the cells you appear to simply be adding them. Why would that be? Taking Paladin as an example, you have 18% active, which is 7% + 5% + 3% + 3% for the various abilities. If active, passive, and raid DR's stack multiplicatively shouldn't the individual abilities do so as well? So really Paladin active DR should be 16.9%, no?

    Not that it massively changes the output, but it would narrow the calculated warrior advantage a bit.

  10. #10
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xentex View Post
    I have a math question regarding the spreadsheet.

    When you calculate the total mitigation you do it multiplicatively, so (1 - passive DR) x (1 - active DR) etc. I assume that's actually the way it works.

    When you put those DR numbers in the cells you appear to simply be adding them. Why would that be? Taking Paladin as an example, you have 18% active, which is 7% + 5% + 3% + 3% for the various abilities. If active, passive, and raid DR's stack multiplicatively shouldn't the individual abilities do so as well? So really Paladin active DR should be 16.9%, no?

    Not that it massively changes the output, but it would narrow the calculated warrior advantage a bit.
    There's a part of my rogue FAQ that explains the stacking rules, so I'll just paste it here. (Note that the explanation focuses on healing/damage multipliers, but mitigation multipliers function in the same way.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    I see a lot of different talents and effects that increase my damage and/or healing. How do these stack?

    There are five basic stacking groups: passive, buff-based, debuff-based, mastery-based, and encounter-specific. Each group is additive within itself and multiplicative with the other groups.

    Passive boosts are anything that is always active (IE not granted by some kind of buff, not even a 1-hour buff). Examples include Blade Finesse and the soul gifts.

    Buff-based boosts are anything that applies a buff to you. Examples include Stalker Phase and Hack and Slash.

    Debuff-based boosts are anything that applies a debuff to the enemy, such as Magnify Pain and Ace Shot.

    Any damage modifier from masteries is in its own category, regardless of whether it's passive, a buff, or a debuff. These are multiplicative with everything.

    Encounter-based boosts are something that is specific to a given boss fight. For instance, the Goloch raid encounter has white circles on the ground that drastically increase the damage of anyone standing in them, while Primordius has a phase where he takes amplified damage. Despite being buffs or debuffs, these are multiplicative with everything so that they affect all specs equally.

    These rules also apply to effects that directly affect damage taken-- in other words, mitigation talents.

    Note that these stacking rules only apply to effects that offer direct, percentage-based adjustments to damage, healing, or mitigation. If something affects a stat (IE Attack Power or Armor), then it will be additive-- for instance, Burning Rage and Increased Fire Power stack additively even though one is passive and the other is buff-based, because they're boosting Attack Power rather than directly affecting your damage.
    One quick thing to note-- I stuck Rift Guard in as its own category because it's technically not buff-based mitigation (it creates an absorb shield that soaks up 7% of incoming damage, which is different from just reducing incoming damage by 7%). It is thus multiplicative with everything.

  11. #11
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    Hey Muspel,

    maybe I just overlook something, but in acc. to your spreadsheet the armor and VK and Pala are with all buffs up equal, right?

    so, if I check my armor under "c" then i have the follwing armor in the different speccs:
    • VK - without Accord of Resilience = 188.858 (incl. PA & Crustacean Armor Plating)
    • VK - with Accord of Resilience = 193,907 (-45.17 % same lvl)
    • VK - Buff up
    • Pala - without Shield of the Hero = 188,858 (incl. PA & Crustacean Armor Plating)
    • Pala - with Shield of the Hero = 191.887 (-44.91 % same lvl)
    • Pala - Buff up

    As you can see the base armor 188.858 (incl PA + plating) is the same but after the 3% bonus from the talent it is not. What's the reason for it?

    Maybe I'm just missing something here.

    Regards,
    RePyH



    PS:
    Also the resistence modifier is the same in acc. to the spreadsheet. Would that not mean that there is no difference there either?

  12. #12
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RePyH View Post
    As you can see the base armor 188.858 (incl PA + plating) is the same but after the 3% bonus from the talent it is not. What's the reason for it?
    It seems that Accord of Resilience is bugged, and is adding 5% armor instead of 3%.

    Quote Originally Posted by RePyH View Post
    Also the resistence modifier is the same in acc. to the spreadsheet. Would that not mean that there is no difference there either?
    After a bit of investigation, it looks like there are two problems here.

    First off, you're using the wrong Void Knight spec. Make sure that you're filling out Hardened Defenses in the second tier of Paladin for an extra 15% resistance.

    Secondly, there's a bug somewhere in Void Knight that is causing it to have 15% less resistance than it should have. Not sure which talent is bugged, though.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    First off, you're using the wrong Void Knight spec. Make sure that you're filling out Hardened Defenses in the second tier of Paladin for an extra 15% resistance.
    That is true... did go for the dps version sry did not think of that. I knew i missed somithing...

  14. #14
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    So, I realized this morning that I forgot to account for Guarded Steel in the Riftstalker column. It's now been fixed.

  15. #15
    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    Thanks to Carinae providing the dodge and block formulas, I was able to add calculations for the average amount of healing required to keep a tank alive.

    Given that tanks tend to die to bursty, worst-case scenarios, this measurement isn't meaningful, but it's still nice to have it for the sake of completeness.

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