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Thread: Healing vs Shielding for Support

  1. #1
    Plane Touched Kallig's Avatar
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    Default Healing vs Shielding for Support

    I was thinking about the Support role and how the desirability of each Support soul has been turned up-side-down since the release of the Oracle because of the whole "preventative shielding vs. reactive healing" debate. If anyone wishes to discuss any of these support souls more in-depth please go to the appropriate thread. This is for healing vs shielding discussion ONLY.

    Wouldn't it be easier for balancing if all Support souls used shielding and left the healing to the healers?

    I'm sure Bard's healing from Motif of Regeneration, Cadence, and Coda of Restoration could be reworked into shields like the Oracle's pretty easily. If they are changed then Motif of Regeneration and Coda of Restoration may require new names.

    Note: This change would make them more desirable from the healing/shielding point-of-view but they would still be behind the Oracle in terms of DPS, but that's not what this thread is about.

    Reworking the Beastmaster's Call of Kinship and Guardianship into shields and boosting the power of those shields (because their current healing abilities are negligible at best) would go towards making them a much more desirable option for dungeon/raid support. Because right now they are in dead last in terms of desirability.

    Note: There are a plethora of other issues with the current Beastmaster, but again this thread is addressing healing vs shielding only.

    The Archon currently has NO healing or shielding abilities. Would it hurt to add a couple?

    Post your thoughts and thanks for reading!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kallig View Post
    I was thinking about the Support role and how the desirability of each Support soul has been turned up-side-down since the release of the Oracle because of the whole "preventative shielding vs. reactive healing" debate. If anyone wishes to discuss any of these support souls more in-depth please go to the appropriate thread. This is for healing vs shielding discussion ONLY.

    Wouldn't it be easier for balancing if all Support souls used shielding and left the healing to the healers?

    I'm sure Bard's healing from Motif of Regeneration, Cadence, and Coda of Restoration could be reworked into shields like the Oracle's pretty easily. If they are changed then Motif of Regeneration and Coda of Restoration may require new names.

    Note: This change would make them more desirable from the healing/shielding point-of-view but they would still be behind the Oracle in terms of DPS, but that's not what this thread is about.

    Reworking the Beastmaster's Call of Kinship and Guardianship into shields and boosting the power of those shields (because their current healing abilities are negligible at best) would go towards making them a much more desirable option for dungeon/raid support. Because right now they are in dead last in terms of desirability.

    Note: There are a plethora of other issues with the current Beastmaster, but again this thread is addressing healing vs shielding only.

    The Archon currently has NO healing or shielding abilities. Would it hurt to add a couple?

    Post your thoughts and thanks for reading!
    How about a link to the thread?

  3. #3
    Plane Walker
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skeithe View Post
    How about a link to the thread?
    Link to what thread? Can you quote the part you are referring?

  4. #4
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    i think you are kind of misunderstanting the role of "support" in this game. their main role is to boost the groups effectiveness by ways of buffs and debuffs. the healing and shielding is largely fluff and can be a little help in 5man dungeons, but in raids unless you built it specifically to heal/shield is largly unnoticed. even if you were to convert the likes of bard to shields like Oracle and bring its DPS up close as well, Oracle will still win as low investment hybrids can make it alot more powerful. for example my current Oracle has 12 Justicar in it offering massive amounts of healing vs multiple targets and some topup healing to help healers.

    now ignoring the souls and the buffs/debuffs they offer and go straight to your point, heals vs shields. Shielding will always win, because it is nearly never wasted. if we didnt have these "support" souls and had to build a support role from whats left then which ever combination gives some shields and DPS would, most likely, be the best option. in this case a phystac hybrid or a Puri hybrid of some kind (not sure what to combine Puri with tbh).

    the main issues with all the support focussing on shields would be that they will all become samey and have no diversity other than ability names. they all need their own flavor and changing one to be like the other because it seems better isnt the answer (see below paragraph). also content would be balanced around you having those shields. if that one dungeon, or raid night you have noone that has the right support setup or someone that isnt sure how to use it properly you will have issues because the content would expect you to have them. (small issue i know but thought id mention it)

    regarding your suggestions to Bard, i think what it needs is a bit more damage and some additional flavor that the Oracle doesnt have instead of converting it into Oracle 2.0. Oracle has nice burst, nice low investment hybrids (DPS, heals or shields) and a double AoE clense. maybe give Bard a combat rez, or an interrupt/purge? this would mean that depending on the fight at hand there could be a choice, "what flavor do we need for this boss?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Skeithe
    How about a link to the thread?
    i think he was generalising, there isnt a specific thread he has in mind but there are discussions about support souls in particular somewhere on these forums.

  5. #5
    Shadowlander
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    I agree Archon needs something either shielding or healing, kinda crappy they have neither (which I didn't realize as I have not played one.) I'm on the fence myself, I play the two support roles that heal, and I'm a little attached to my healing, but that's probably from a survival of myself and my husband again dungeon-**** parties. Then again my pyro-bubble has saved my mage a fair number of times so... eh?

  6. #6
    Plane Touched Kallig's Avatar
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    @Fliptrik,

    1) I know exactly what purpose the support role fills and I'm not asking for them to be
    focusing on shields.
    2) Also, I'm not asking for them to
    become samey and have no diversity.
    I know each support soul has it's own flavor and I want to keep it that way. I just want them to be putting out similar numbers; be it healing/shielding, DPS, etc.

    3)
    Also content would be balanced around you having those shields.
    I am not asking for content to be balanced around the shields because the current healing offered by support souls is not a considerable portion of the healing required by a dungeon or raid.

    4)
    Shielding will always win, because it is nearly never wasted
    Hence why I am asking for a change. Heals are often wasted in over-healing, shields do not have this issue. This is causing the scales to be tipped in favor of the Oracle.

    5)
    This would mean that depending on the fight at hand there could be a choice, "what flavor do we need for this boss?"
    I do not want the fight to determine which support soul is used. The whole point of this thread is that it should be up to the players. Each support soul should be a viable option for each and every fight.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Ianto Jones's Avatar
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    Shielding is a cancer to both raid/boss design and class balance. Shielding should have stayed in Purifier. Its proliferation has caused nothing but problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    Shielding is a cancer to both raid/boss design and class balance. Shielding should have stayed in Purifier. Its proliferation has caused nothing but problems.
    At least the Puri isn't a shield bot any more though hu?

  9. #9
    General of Telara spowers454's Avatar
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    Just isn't a comparison at all. Shielding raises the EHP of the raid or tank/target which is invaluable until folks outgear the content, always has been always will be. Aside form that it also raises the reaction time needed for healers to top off which gives a lot of room for error in most cases.

  10. #10
    Plane Touched Kallig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ianto Jones View Post
    Shielding is a cancer to both raid/boss design and class balance. Shielding should have stayed in Purifier. Its proliferation has caused nothing but problems.
    You seem to be the only person I've ever seen say they don't like shields. I am interested to understand, why?

  11. #11
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    I've said it elsewhere that Purifier vs Sentinel would be better if Purifiers simply had more Shielding and less healing.

    The Purifier would still have say healing flare but a simply put way more Shielding than healing.

    Though in order to do this properly the Purifier would need more AOE shielding in general. I still use the EQ2 Shaman as an ideal comparison.

    The standard ST Shielding + AOE Shielding that Shields the entire party but all hits pull from a single pool of absorption, and with the MT pulling the majority of the hits, its a larger HP pool but at the same time depletes rapidly fast should any other member take hits.

    Then to top off the reduced healing makes bleed through damage extremely detrimental to the soul.

    Problem is builds are based on Multiple souls and 2 additional souls with Purifier would probably make this kind of build OP.

  12. #12
    Plane Touched Kallig's Avatar
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    Thank you for your input Skeithe, but please try keep the discussion on the support souls.

  13. #13
    Shadowlander Zwets's Avatar
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    When going into preemptive vs. reactive, would Lingering Dust count as a preemptive way of countering the DPS a boss can output? (Assuming that the boss is actually affected by it)

    From other games I remember the heals vs. shields debate usually came down to:
    More healing always stacks so long as there is HP missing, more shielding does not stack, regardless of how much HP someone is missing.
    Reapplying shields just refreshes them.

    But because in Rift there is usually enough spots in a raid for a raid healer as well as a tank healer, the usefulness of a support healer group healing everyone is pretty limited.

  14. #14
    Plane Touched Kallig's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zwets View Post
    When going into preemptive vs. reactive, would Lingering Dust count as a preemptive way of countering the DPS a boss can output? (Assuming that the boss is actually affected by it)

    From other games I remember the heals vs. shields debate usually came down to:
    Reapplying shields just refreshes them.

    But because in Rift there is usually enough spots in a raid for a raid healer as well as a tank healer, the usefulness of a support healer group healing everyone is pretty limited.
    I think Lingering Dust is considered a debuff.

    In response to the quote: That is the point I am trying to make, more healing ONLY stacks if there is HP missing while shields can be maintained even while at full health. Like you said there is always be a spot for a raid healer so while the raid has shields up the AE healers can be healing for any missing health.

  15. #15
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    Shielding and Healing BOTH have equal pros and cons.

    Healing Stacks as long as the HP is missing.

    Shielding allows for "over healing" but typically Shields do not stack so while HP is moving down your stuck reapplying the same shield.

    Now since we are talking about support im going to overly assume the support shields DO NOT stack with themselves in essence making healing support look better.

    The nice thing is you can have both support styles work together very nicely.

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