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Thread: The skills in Rift are boring

  1. #1
    Soulwalker
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    Default The skills in Rift are boring

    A lot of skills do exactly the same thing as other ones with just different icons, names, and animations. They're not really unique. Mostly at least. Does anyone feel the same?

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    RIFT Guide Writer Muspel's Avatar
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    The lowest tier skills in the tree tend to have a lot of overlap, at least on the surface. For instance, (almost) every rogue soul has a basic ability that hits one target and builds one combo point. This is to ensure that every soul has access to basic functionality.

    However, deeper in the tree, there are usually other talents or abilities that upgrade or interact with these abilities in different ways, and this is where you start to see more significant differentiation.

    For instance, Bladedancer's Keen Strike enables the use of an offhand attack, which hit harder than mainhand attacks, and the rotation is based around this alternation between mainhand and offhand attacks. Fireball has synergy with talents like Pyromancer's Vengeance and Pyromancer's Blessing, while Vile Spores can proc Boon of Life and does increased healing via Veils. Reckless Strike benefits from Destructive Forces, while Fierce Strike purges enemies via Abolition. And so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muspel View Post
    The lowest tier skills in the tree tend to have a lot of overlap, at least on the surface. For instance, (almost) every rogue soul has a basic ability that hits one target and builds one combo point. This is to ensure that every soul has access to basic functionality.

    However, deeper in the tree, there are usually other talents or abilities that upgrade or interact with these abilities in different ways, and this is where you start to see more significant differentiation.

    For instance, Bladedancer's Keen Strike enables the use of an offhand attack, which hit harder than mainhand attacks, and the rotation is based around this alternation between mainhand and offhand attacks. Fireball has synergy with talents like Pyromancer's Vengeance and Pyromancer's Blessing, while Vile Spores can proc Boon of Life and does increased healing via Veils. Reckless Strike benefits from Destructive Forces, while Fierce Strike purges enemies via Abolition. And so on.
    While your knowledge is vast(and it truly is!), I sadly have to stop you right there. Rift has very few weak sides and this is one of those three:

    Creativity. I'll use Dominator as an example and cross it with few other, interesting classes that act just like it.

    Dominator is easily the most creative soul here and even it is sitting on about 50% of its potential. Sure, throwing enemies around while proccing shackles while interrupting while keeping an enemy immobile so h.pain eats him alive IS fun and creative. However, flashpoint(sorry for swtor speak, but I forgot the true name) bosses are immune to CC-for whatever reason. They should instead have shortened CC duration, NOT flatout IMMUNITY. Now, for cross-check. This is a very difficult check because it is getting compared to Mesmer(GW 1) and psionicist(Vanguard)/enchanter(EQ). If we could only act like either of those act, it'd be splendid. Mesmer uses debuffs and interrupts to do his work(interrupts work on ANYTHING in GW 1, mind you!) while Enchanter is creative beyond belief. Above and beyond Dominator, they can even dominate minds of mobs, turning them for himself. Now, Dominator isn't that far away, truth be told, but other souls?

    BLAND, BLAND, BLAND. There is so much copy/paste that it is unbelievable and, overall feel is that they can't handle this # of souls.

    Look at CoH, GW 1, EQ and, partly, Funcom games(AoC, TSW) for creativity. Rift has a dozen of strong sides, but in the skill dept it TRULY feels like a WOW CLONE. OP is, sadly, right...

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by zabragoz View Post
    A lot of skills do exactly the same thing as other ones with just different icons, names, and animations. They're not really unique. Mostly at least. Does anyone feel the same?
    As Muspel has pointed out above, the functionality of most abilities goes far beyond the mere tooltip description through the various changes that the soul's other talents provide.

    An example would be Inquisitor: When you look at the tooltips of the three bolt abilities, you see two short-cast low-damage abilities and one long-cast high-damage ability. I agree with you that this would be boring. But the thing is that this is not everything about those abilities. Anyone who has even the most remote knowledge of the Inquisitor soul will know about the things known as Life and Death Concord, Echoing Concord, Unified Theory and Spiritual Scrutiny. These talents that are unlocked by spending points in inquisitor change the way how your bolts work: Your BoJ and BoR build up stacks that make your BoD quicker, your BoD makes your BoR quicker again, and depending on the situation, some bolts become instant cast. All of this makes the three Bolts a lot more interesting. But if you only look at their tooltips, you won't notice that.

    What the OP writes about different skills being the same may be true for level 1-25 or so, but it isn't true beyond that. Any level 60 player who has been trying to learn/make a spec all by himself (without reading a guide etc...) will know how complicated and various the mechanics behind the tooltips are.

    I think the mistake of the OP is the following: He assumes that the complexity in a thing will jump into his face when he takes only a quick look at said thing. But complexity doesn't work like that. If you would know everything about a soul/class/spec by pressing P and reading the tooltips of the abilities, that soul/class/spec would be too easy to learn and use. Only by making players think twice about an ability, by adding some subtle mechanics that don't jump in your face, and by making the whole system complicated, you can ensure that players will actually have to do something in order to understand, learn, and master a certain soul/class/spec.
    I mean, if there were a thousand different units in a strategy game, but you would have them all at the beginning, then that game would still be boring. But if you have to start with some boring marines and work your way up to the more interesting stuff, it becomes a challenge. It is the same with an MMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthran View Post
    Now, for cross-check. This is a very difficult check because it is getting compared to Mesmer(GW 1) and psionicist(Vanguard)/enchanter(EQ). If we could only act like either of those act, it'd be splendid. Mesmer uses debuffs and interrupts to do his work(interrupts work on ANYTHING in GW 1, mind you!) while Enchanter is creative beyond belief. Above and beyond Dominator, they can even dominate minds of mobs, turning them for himself.
    I think you're confusing the sheer amount of different stuff with its quality. If you gave a class all the stuff there is in a game, that would make the class extremely powerful yes, but not necessarily more interesting.
    Your argument that dominator is inferior in design to those other classes because it doesn't have a mind control shows exactly that misunderstanding. I could also say that the design of the oracle soul is inferior to that of the druid because it doesn't have two interrupts. However, most people will agree with me that the oracle is a lot more interesting and enjoyable than the druid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthran View Post
    Now, Dominator isn't that far away, truth be told, but other souls? BLAND, BLAND, BLAND. There is so much copy/paste that it is unbelievable and, overall feel is that they can't handle this # of souls.
    I agree with you that dominator is probably the most interesting/complex soul in the game, however, calling the other souls copy-and-pasted is an unjustified generalisation. Yes, there are things that are similar or even the same between souls, but that is for balance reasons. I think that most souls, however, even if they fulfill more or less the same purpose, are quite different from each other. I mean, it is required for balance reasons that a bard and oracle can provide more or less the same benefits to the raid. Still, the rotation and overall playstyle of the two souls is very different. Same goes for the archon and beastmaster, the physician and purifier, and so on...

    Another problem is that in other games, your character is bound to one class. Now these classes can be as different as they want from each other, because you only need to know how to play one of them. In rift, especially at endgame, it is widely expected from a player (at least in PvE) to be able to play at least 5 different specs. Now, if these specs would work totally and completely different from each other, it would take you so much longer to learn them all. It would stop new players from jumping into the content because they have to learn 5 absolutely different specs on the dummy before being taken into a group where you would finally use only 1 or 2 of them.

    I hope my point is clear, please excuse any grammar/writing mistakes, english is not my native language.
    Athanil@Gelidra <Harshmallows>
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athanil View Post
    As Muspel has pointed out above, the functionality of most abilities goes far beyond the mere tooltip description through the various changes that the soul's other talents provide.

    An example would be Inquisitor: When you look at the tooltips of the three bolt abilities, you see two short-cast low-damage abilities and one long-cast high-damage ability. I agree with you that this would be boring. But the thing is that this is not everything about those abilities. Anyone who has even the most remote knowledge of the Inquisitor soul will know about the things known as Life and Death Concord, Echoing Concord, Unified Theory and Spiritual Scrutiny. These talents that are unlocked by spending points in inquisitor change the way how your bolts work: Your BoJ and BoR build up stacks that make your BoD quicker, your BoD makes your BoR quicker again, and depending on the situation, some bolts become instant cast. All of this makes the three Bolts a lot more interesting. But if you only look at their tooltips, you won't notice that.

    What the OP writes about different skills being the same may be true for level 1-25 or so, but it isn't true beyond that. Any level 60 player who has been trying to learn/make a spec all by himself (without reading a guide etc...) will know how complicated and various the mechanics behind the tooltips are.

    I think the mistake of the OP is the following: He assumes that the complexity in a thing will jump into his face when he takes only a quick look at said thing. But complexity doesn't work like that. If you would know everything about a soul/class/spec by pressing P and reading the tooltips of the abilities, that soul/class/spec would be too easy to learn and use. Only by making players think twice about an ability, by adding some subtle mechanics that don't jump in your face, and by making the whole system complicated, you can ensure that players will actually have to do something in order to understand, learn, and master a certain soul/class/spec.
    I mean, if there were a thousand different units in a strategy game, but you would have them all at the beginning, then that game would still be boring. But if you have to start with some boring marines and work your way up to the more interesting stuff, it becomes a challenge. It is the same with an MMO.



    I think you're confusing the sheer amount of different stuff with its quality. If you gave a class all the stuff there is in a game, that would make the class extremely powerful yes, but not necessarily more interesting.
    Your argument that dominator is inferior in design to those other classes because it doesn't have a mind control shows exactly that misunderstanding. I could also say that the design of the oracle soul is inferior to that of the druid because it doesn't have two interrupts. However, most people will agree with me that the oracle is a lot more interesting and enjoyable than the druid.



    I agree with you that dominator is probably the most interesting/complex soul in the game, however, calling the other souls copy-and-pasted is an unjustified generalisation. Yes, there are things that are similar or even the same between souls, but that is for balance reasons. I think that most souls, however, even if they fulfill more or less the same purpose, are quite different from each other. I mean, it is required for balance reasons that a bard and oracle can provide more or less the same benefits to the raid. Still, the rotation and overall playstyle of the two souls is very different. Same goes for the archon and beastmaster, the physician and purifier, and so on...

    Another problem is that in other games, your character is bound to one class. Now these classes can be as different as they want from each other, because you only need to know how to play one of them. In rift, especially at endgame, it is widely expected from a player (at least in PvE) to be able to play at least 5 different specs. Now, if these specs would work totally and completely different from each other, it would take you so much longer to learn them all. It would stop new players from jumping into the content because they have to learn 5 absolutely different specs on the dummy before being taken into a group where you would finally use only 1 or 2 of them.

    I hope my point is clear, please excuse any grammar/writing mistakes, english is not my native language.
    Fair points! +1 to you ;)

    Yeah, I went overboard with the bland thing. I admit. Still, boring/simple classes such as pyro DO exist(all this is imo). But there are support souls, Dominator and such awesome fun classes. /shrug it probably evens out in the end.

    Excuse my vitriol. See, my warrior souls got roflstomped. Riftblade is mega meh now, Warlord got changed too much(remember when it used to be a support soul?) and is bound for the massacre land(meh) and bm doesn't even have a tanking stance(which we used to have!) and we are the worst pet class to boot. Meh, I complained more than enough about this...

  6. #6
    Plane Touched Ahielia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthran View Post
    bosses are immune to CC-for whatever reason. They should instead have shortened CC duration, NOT flatout IMMUNITY.
    You're kidding... Right?

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulthran View Post
    Fair points! +1 to you ;)

    Yeah, I went overboard with the bland thing. I admit. Still, boring/simple classes such as pyro DO exist(all this is imo). But there are support souls, Dominator and such awesome fun classes. /shrug it probably evens out in the end.

    Excuse my vitriol. See, my warrior souls got roflstomped. Riftblade is mega meh now, Warlord got changed too much(remember when it used to be a support soul?) and is bound for the massacre land(meh) and bm doesn't even have a tanking stance(which we used to have!) and we are the worst pet class to boot. Meh, I complained more than enough about this...
    I agree with you that warrior is kind of the meh-est class right now. I always wanted to level a 60 warrior but when i started it just felt so painful to play. maybe the new reaper will change things... looks like a hybrid between a melee warlock and a non-stealth, position independent assassin.
    Athanil@Gelidra <Harshmallows>
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  8. #8
    Ascendant Wing man's Avatar
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    What I find boring with the skills in Rift is the lack of viability in hybrids. 61pt builds are Zzzzzzzz

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wing man View Post
    What I find boring with the skills in Rift is the lack of viability in hybrids. 61pt builds are Zzzzzzzz
    Yeah, like, putting +30% dmg on Blade of Ascended is stupid. I mean between 51 and 61 you get like +75% dmg as a Riftblade(which is above the amount you get until then-especially if we are speaking about Avatar.)! Burst synergy is an awesome skill unlike those two skills(Avatar, Blade).

    There is a right way of designing trans 40 skills and the wrong way. The wrong way would be the Riftblade way-you're just pushed to 61 or bust! The right way would be to design branches(NOT roots!) in such a way that you feel like you just aren't done with talents. Back to the RB example-I have no wish to go past 44 or so(Rift strike). There are even worse examples-Beastmaster. After enrage, if you don't want to play progression PvE, you have TWENTY(20!) points that are basically Void, but 61 is so good!

    Whatever
    Last edited by Ulthran; 10-06-2014 at 11:38 AM.

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