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Thread: Class balance and 2.7: any class can play any role, is it sttill balanced?

  1. #1
    Telaran
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    Default Class balance and 2.7: any class can play any role, is it sttill balanced?

    We have 4 classes
    • Warrior
    • Cleric
    • Rogue
    • Mage

    We have 4 roles
    • Tank
    • Healer
    • Support
    • DPS

    With 2.7 the new souls every class can play any role. I believe that it brings some opacity on the balance between classes and their natural roles.

    So here few assumptions, feel free to express different ones:
    • Melee DPS should be higher than Range DPS
    • Clerics should be the best tank healers
    • Mages should be the best raid healers
    • Complexity is the price to pay for high DPS
    • High DPS should mean less CC abilities
    • New souls should offer niche spec (good for certain fights but in general not as good as the natural class)
    • Melee has higher mobility than Range

    So, what do you think?

  2. #2
    Rift Master
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    It's not balanced, and I disagree with some assumptions.

    I think the raid healers and the single target healers should be competitive. 2 of the raid healers aren't, the single target healers are pretty close.

    Chloros bring raid healing and tank healing (not at the same time), as well as personal dps and wild growth to boost raid dps. Liberator is only a raid healer, lacks aoe cleanse, and I think it lacks a battle rez as well. I don't consider warden to be in the same class as either of these 2, it works more on burst aoe healing instead of the more steady throughput of the chloro and presumably liberator (from what I've seen, I don't play it on mine).

    Sentinel and physician seem fairly close in balance. Sentinel has better saves, physician has less resource management. Sentinel has higher tooltip values, physician has shielding to help its lower numbers. Physician has a mobility advantage, sentinel has a 2nd breakfree.

    I would like it if complexity = higher dps. But from what I've seen on PTS, they aren't moving towards higher complexity, but rather the opposite. If Trion doesn't operate on the assumption of harder priority system/rotation = more dps, why should the players?

    I think high dps = fewer cc is too general of a statement. High dps with defense should justify little to no cc. High dps with little to no defense should call for more cc. There should be more than dps as a factor.

    Purchased souls need to justify their expense. They have to be good at their intended purpose. That being said, they shouldn't completely overpower their equivalents in other callings. I'm looking at you oracle! Aside from oracle/bard, the dream soul pack seems to be balanced.
    Last edited by Taledra; 08-05-2014 at 05:12 PM.

  3. #3
    Ascendant
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    [QUOTE=Lillinn;4861256]
    • Melee DPS should be higher than Range DPS
      This is not true as of 2.8, pyromancer is the highest st dps soul in game and it has full 35 meter range.
    • Clerics should be the best tank healers
      Well Purifier is still unique and is pretty much untouchable.
    • Mages should be the best raid healers
      Currently overshadowed by Phystact in sustained raid healing and warden in burst raid healing.
    • Complexity is the price to pay for high DPS
      As of 2.8 this is not true, 61 pyromancer is one of the easier souls to play, and is top dps in the entire game.
    • High DPS should mean less CC abilities
      Somewhat true.
    • New souls should offer niche spec (good for certain fights but in general not as good as the natural class)
      Some souls are unique like defiler.
    • Melee has higher mobility than Range
      Depends, mostly true but ranger is 100% mobile unless for some reason you want to use Rain of Arrows.

    Replies in red.
    Last edited by WarUltima; 08-06-2014 at 10:22 AM.

  4. #4
    Rift Master Sezex's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=WarUltima;4862253]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillinn View Post
    • Melee DPS should be higher than Range DPS
      This is not true as of 2.8, pyromancer is the highest st dps soul in game and it has full 35 meter range.
    • Clerics should be the best tank healers
      Well Purifier is still unique and is pretty much untouchable.
    • Mages should be the best raid healers
      Currently overshadowed by Phystact in sustained raid healing and warden in burst raid healing.
    • Complexity is the price to pay for high DPS
      As of 2.8 this is not true, 61 pyromancer is one of the easier souls to play, and is top dps in the entire game.
    • High DPS should mean less CC abilities
      Somewhat true.
    • New souls should offer niche spec (good for certain fights but in general not as good as the natural class)
      Some souls are unique like defiler.
    • Melee has higher mobility than Range
      Depends, mostly true but ranger is 100% mobile unless for some reason you want to use Rain of Arrows.

    Replies in red.

    Agreed on all, yet its either pyro will get nerfed or other souls will be buffed to meet 3.0 dps req.

  5. #5
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    the game is actually really imbalanced IMO right now because though everyone can do everything they cant all do it competitively. i think everyone has something they can do top end so it gives you something to do but as far as every type of game play its way off

    for pvp
    clerics and rogues can heal while mage is behind and warrior is way behind
    rogues and warriors can melee dps while clerics are mages are behind
    mages, rogues and clerics can dps from range while warriors are behind
    rogues mages and clerics can aoe range dps while warrior cannot
    dom is unique
    defiler is unique
    puri is unique
    warriors and mages tanks can pull while cleric and rogues cannot
    rogue and mage tanks hybrid well while warrior and cleric do not
    warriors and mages can spam purge while rogues and clerics cannot

    i hated the idea of blending everyone but if you are going to do it then do it right. make everyone able to be competitive at everything not like it is now
    st dps from range and melee
    st/aoe healing
    complex top st dps
    st/aoe hybrid dps
    aoe range
    aoe melee
    then 1 unique soul like defiler or dom per class.
    Last edited by dday; 08-06-2014 at 07:01 PM.

  6. #6
    Ascendant Snap's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dday View Post
    the game is actually really imbalanced IMO right now because though everyone can do everything they cant all do it competitively. i think everyone has something they can do top end so it gives you something to do but as far as every type of game play its way off

    for pvp
    clerics and rogues can heal while mage is behind and warrior is way behind
    rogues and warriors can melee dps while clerics are mages are behind
    mages, rogues and clerics can dps from range while warriors are behind
    rogues mages and clerics can aoe range dps while warrior cannot
    dom is unique
    defiler is unique
    puri is unique
    warriors and mages tanks can pull while cleric and rogues cannot
    rogue and mage tanks hybrid well while warrior and cleric do not
    warriors and mages can spam purge while rogues and clerics cannot

    i hated the idea of blending everyone but if you are going to do it then do it right. make everyone able to be competitive at everything not like it is now
    st dps from range and melee
    st/aoe healing
    complex top st dps
    st/aoe hybrid dps
    aoe range
    aoe melee
    then 1 unique soul like defiler or dom per class.
    In PvE, every class can perform competively. Some are better then other, but the player is what makes the real difference.

    For PvP, it's true that mage and warrior suck at healing and the melee vs range DPS for classes isn't that much problematic, it sucks, but it's kinda hard to balance with PvE in mind. With callbiter for mage and the arc being put back to do it's full damage in PvP instead of 50%, mage and warriors can see melee and range both.
    While mage, rogue and cleric can AoE from range (Like it mattered...) Warrior got warlord... a soul that seems to be built for PvP.
    Warriors can pull a lot. Mage only got 1 single target 45 sec CD pull that cleric doesn't have. Cleric can also AoE pull like a mage. Rogues got a AoE pull around them (with a very short radius tho)
    Tank hybrid... erm... really? Warladin? Low tier justicar?
    Rogue and cleric can double purge. Cleric cabalist is a purge machine... mage and warrior can only spam purge in support spec... support specs which provide no healing like bard and oracle.


    Really... you seems to be missing a lot of information about multiple classes mechanics and specs...

    As for unique soul... Tactician and Warlord are very unique.
    Last edited by Snap; 08-07-2014 at 09:24 AM.
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  7. #7
    Rift Disciple WyldStallyns's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=WarUltima;4862253]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillinn View Post
    • Complexity is the price to pay for high DPS
      As of 2.8 this is not true, 61 pyromancer is one of the easier souls to play, and is top dps in the entire game.
    Also stormbinger, one of the most complex specs in the game, was nerfed so that 61 pyro could take the top spot.
    Last edited by WyldStallyns; 08-07-2014 at 01:13 PM.
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  8. #8
    Ascendant dday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snap View Post
    In PvE, every class can perform competively. Some are better then other, but the player is what makes the real difference.

    For PvP, it's true that mage and warrior suck at healing and the melee vs range DPS for classes isn't that much problematic, it sucks, but it's kinda hard to balance with PvE in mind. With callbiter for mage and the arc being put back to do it's full damage in PvP instead of 50%, mage and warriors can see melee and range both.
    While mage, rogue and cleric can AoE from range (Like it mattered...) Warrior got warlord... a soul that seems to be built for PvP.
    Warriors can pull a lot. Mage only got 1 single target 45 sec CD pull that cleric doesn't have. Cleric can also AoE pull like a mage. Rogues got a AoE pull around them (with a very short radius tho)
    Tank hybrid... erm... really? Warladin? Low tier justicar?
    Rogue and cleric can double purge. Cleric cabalist is a purge machine... mage and warrior can only spam purge in support spec... support specs which provide no healing like bard and oracle.


    Really... you seems to be missing a lot of information about multiple classes mechanics and specs...

    As for unique soul... Tactician and Warlord are very unique.
    warladin is not a good soul, it beats 0 other classes 1 v 1. sin rs, inq, and charb destroy it

    how is warlord unique, it a bland melee soul? because it has slightly more health that paragon? im talking about things that no one else can bring to the table like dom drains and control, or defiler links, puri shield etc etc. what does tact bring to pvp or warlord that another class cant copy?

    all your points dont prove any of mine wrong except the cleric pull which i forgot about. spam purge is greater that eradicate by a ton same with cleansing flames.

    it's not hard to balance with pve in mind. make everyone be able to do everything that means two melee souls one for aoe one for st, two range souls one for aoe and one for st, two heal souls, one for st one for aoe, a support soul, a tank soul, then the rest of the souls can be unique to the calling. you cant have some classes with the ability to preform all task IE rogue while other classes can not.

    you insult me yet you seem to not pvp very much or at all...

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Princess Lacus's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=WarUltima;4862253]
    Quote Originally Posted by Lillinn View Post
    [*]New souls should offer niche spec (good for certain fights but in general not as good as the natural class)
    Some souls are unique like defiler.[/LIST]
    Replies in red.
    I was telling this to someone the other night. I feel like the mage and cleric healing classes have been put out of a job on most fights in pve which as been brought up in comments in other threads already.

    I wish Physician's never had shielding and their heals are way to powerful. My alt rogue with barely any T1 gear can hit heals nearly as high as my geared out Cleric main. They need to be tuned down or something, less like sent plus puri had a baby. Why take a sent when you can take the baby of puri+sent to a raid and add that temp HP extra? Oh now a Cleric who choose a Cleric to heal is out of a healing job, thanks Trion!

    Sure the souls Trion made need to sell but make them more situation based and or less reliant to major content and just a option to have.

    Not to mention whenever Sentinel had some aoe good heals it got taken away, why is physican's aoe power still intact?
    Last edited by Princess Lacus; 08-14-2014 at 03:41 AM.

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  10. #10
    Telaran Eudial's Avatar
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    I ultimately want all classes to be equal in terms of power. Maybe it will stop the "why bring X when Y". Each calling becomes a flavour. With 6 souls they will fill 6 raid roles, 1 or 2 for PvP and 2 for fun itself. I don't want the raid spot decisions based on calling (just spec, skill and minimum gear).

    They are very close to making it so.

  11. #11
    Soulwalker
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    [QUOTE=Princess Lacus;4873011]
    Quote Originally Posted by WarUltima View Post

    I was telling this to someone the other night. I feel like the mage and cleric healing classes have been put out of a job on most fights in pve which as been brought up in comments in other threads already.

    I wish Physician's never had shielding and their heals are way to powerful. My alt rogue with barely any T1 gear can hit heals nearly as high as my geared out Cleric main. They need to be tuned down or something, less like sent plus puri had a baby. Why take a sent when you can take the baby of puri+sent to a raid and add that temp HP extra? Oh now a Cleric who choose a Cleric to heal is out of a healing job, thanks Trion!

    Sure the souls Trion made need to sell but make them more situation based and or less reliant to major content and just a option to have.

    Not to mention whenever Sentinel had some aoe good heals it got taken away, why is physican's aoe power still intact?

    THIS. I totally agree with some of the new souls overshadowing what used to be great roles often used in raids. Personally, I picked the cleric to heal and now I'm seeing my warden getting beaten out by warriors and my puri being challenged by physicians. Not to mention they seem to have no power/energy issues, unlike warden and puri's mana management issue. Oh and the other slap to the face is that the rotation is stupidly easy with a lot of instant casts, whereas my warden and puri are actually somewhat challenging if you want to get the most out of them. I finally got the specs down to where I can pump out the max amount of heals after a month of reading forums and raid practice and was very proud of what I had accomplished. Then the new souls came in and warriors/rogues can just build a quick spec 5 minutes before raid and faceroll nearly the same amount of heals. It's very deflating and makes me worry about whether cleric healing roles will be very important to raids anymore or if I'm going to have to go dps to allow the warrior to raid heal. I think if that happens I'm gonna start gearing up my mage... :/

    Overall, the classes as a whole are getting closer to balance, but I do feel they should allow certain classes to always remain the top at certain things. I don't care for the 'jack of all trades master of none' cleric thing.... I want clerics to always be one of the top healing classes since, afterall, we do have a gazillion different healing souls. If we are going to be on par or slightly lower than warriors and rogues at healing, I want another dps soul to replace one of our healing ones, since we will likely be doing more dps in raids.

    I'm just hoping the new souls are all sparkly and super-charged so that people will buy them and once Trion gets enough money from those soul purchases maybe they will bring them back down to level. *crosses fingers*

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