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Thread: Charred Flamesource is next to worthless

  1. #1
    Telaran 7A65726F's Avatar
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    Default Charred Flamesource is next to worthless

    Warning: Math ahoy!

    Crit Chance:
    Both Physical Crit (PCr) and Spell Crit rating (SCr) are converted from their primary stats at a rate of 50%; so 80 STR/DEX or INT/WIS becomes 40 Physical Crit or Spell Crit rating. PCr and SCr are also converted to Crit Chance at a rate of .008% (1/125th chance per Rating); so 1000 Spell Crit becomes 8% chance to crit.

    Crit Power:
    Bonus damage on a critical strike is calculated via Crit Power (CrP) and starts at +50% damage without any rating (according to Patch Notes for 1.11; haven't found anything newer than that to clarify current state of crit damage), and increases by +1% per 28 CrP up to a maximum of +100%, which is 1400 CrP.

    Fully upgraded T3 crit power gear (only armor pieces; and not best in slot but obviously still good gear) comes in at +748 Crit Power. T2/T3 equivalent weapons with CrP have 85-100 CrP on them, so make that a total of +848 CrP. That's +30% Crit Damage from rating (total Crit Damage is +80%).

    Raid buffs give you +103 rating, bringing you up to 951 CrP (+33%; total +83%). The Flamesource proc will temporarily bring you up to +37%, totaling at +87% Crit Damage.

    That is a whopping potential 4.8% DPS increase from CrP (87% versus 83%)... if you have 100% crit chance, which is impossible because of the hard cap of 60% Crit Chance from rating (though bonuses in your soul tree can bring it past that). The soft cap is 45% Crit Chance, which is pretty hard to break without buffs out of the wazoo (or being a rogue). If you are exactly at the soft cap, that makes the potential maximum DPS increase ~2.168%. That's assuming you crit every single hit in a fight. You won't. When you don't crit, CrP isn't worth anything. Crit Power, while useful for making crits multiplicatively more effective, is worth nothing in short and medium encounters without a guaranteed crit mechanic (or extremely high base crit chance). In raids, it does have value. But 103 CrP is not worth the 3000 - 4000 plat that a Charred Flamesource will run you. IF there was a tertiary upgrade from what Flamesource et al build into to boost its stats, then it could be worth something. But as it is, you're paying 3500p for a wholly negligible boost in damage output. The increase is actually even less than what I've calculated here because I've excluded bonuses from accessories and Planar Focii/essences (obviously your mileage will vary since most people will have different amounts of CrP on them due to different equipment).

    This post might seem a bit complainy over the price, but I don't mean for it to be. I just wanted to do mathcrafting for myself to see why it was so desired, and as it is, I don't see why it's so expensive other than rarity and the potential for getting an item shard first (though that is long since gone). Maybe it's purely an e-peen item. (Trion, I just got a great idea for a store item that enlarges your character's staff... Pm me for details )

    tl;dr - The more Crit Power you have, the less of an effective DPS/HPS increase getting more will have. Flamesource is worth getting if you have everything else as BiS and you want to top yourself off. It's not really worth it in any other case, as you can buy equipment upgrades for more stats at a lower price.

    If you stayed long enough to read all this, thanks!
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    Rift Disciple Enshu's Avatar
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    Agree with you wholeheartedly , and thank you so much for throwing the TL;DR in there

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    Telaran 7A65726F's Avatar
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    No prob! I know some people don't love raw math like I do.
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    Prophet of Telara MisterWibble's Avatar
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    So it's only of less value compared to other items if you're into math crafting and love min/maxing? ;).. sometimes 1% more damage, assumed from a 45% crit rate (4k+ dps in some specs) can make all the difference.

    If it's the something you get your hands on easily, it's still worth more than not using anything. Nuance is everything.
    Last edited by MisterWibble; 06-13-2014 at 08:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MisterWibble View Post
    So it's only of less value compared to other items if you're into math crafting and love min/maxing? ;).. sometimes 1% more damage, assumed from a 45% crit rate (4k+ dps in some specs) can make all the difference.

    If it's the something you get your hands on easily, it's still worth more than not using anything. Nuance is everything.
    If 1% of your dps is 4k, that would mean you're doing 400k dps.
    I somehow have a hard time believing this.

    Quote Originally Posted by 7A65726F View Post
    tl;dr - The more Crit Power you have, the less of an effective DPS/HPS increase getting more will have.
    False. An increase of 103 CP will contribute just as much when you have 0 CP as when you have 1000 CP.
    Last edited by Dontlookatme; 06-13-2014 at 08:49 AM.
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    Telaran 7A65726F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dontlookatme View Post
    False. An increase of 103 CP will contribute just as much when you have 0 CP as when you have 1000 CP.
    Partially correct! 103 CrP will increase your Crit Power by 103 regardless of what you had before. But its percentile change to your damage/healing done will be diminishing because 150% vs 160% isn't a 10% increase. It's a 6.66% increase. The bonus damage from 103 CrP will be consistent, but proportionally it won't be.

    103 CrP == + 3.5% Crit Damage
    103 CrP != + 3.5% DPS/HPS

    Even at 0 CrP, a 3.5% Crit Damage increase only makes you do 153.5% damage compared to 150% - which is just a 2.33% increase in damage done on a crit.
    Last edited by 7A65726F; 06-13-2014 at 09:12 AM. Reason: wrong article adjective rofl
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    Ral
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    I find the OP misleading as it does a bunch of math to establish a percent increase of damage but then simply states that other upgrades are more cost effective without even mentioning what those upgrades are.

    I am going to assume the OP means a straight upgrade from the fire lesser to the charred greater (which ignores the ability to double up the lesser stats) which for arguments sake say is a T1 to T2 upgrade. Say a charred costs 5000p, and we spend that on 5 rex to get 6250 credits (and we happen to have 50 left over from something), we can now buy the T2 boots instead at 6300 credits. To fairly compare let us assume we already have some T1 boots, lets take the mage boots from progenitor, so we gain 18int, 1wis, 6end and 45cp with the boots for our ~5k spent.

    This is 13.75sp, 45cp, 6end versus 103cp. Now I am not doing the math, but if I didn't have maxed cp I question if 13.75sp>58cp.

    Even if the charred upgrade is only a ~1% dps increase, so is most gear upgrades. I suppose there are cases when moving from a crit rating -> ap/cp might be a more cost effective solution but I still feel any reasonable upgrades would fall into the same approximate range which means the charred is just about valued where it should be.

    Or you could just do a bunch of Quoras and get it for free.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 7A65726F View Post
    Partially correct! 103 CrP will increase your Crit Power by 103 regardless of what you had before. But its percentile change to your damage/healing done will be diminishing because 150% vs 160% isn't a 10% increase. It's a 6.66% increase. The bonus damage from 103 CrP will be consistent, but proportionally it won't be.
    I'll give you that one and add that the charred flamesource not being a good choice also has a secondary reason.
    When you use a charred you're banking on that proc *always* being up or you're losing dps due to not being CP capped, and not having any other stats where the 103CP would have been.
    In reality, it rarely has a 100% uptime, so it is effectively a loss of statpoints.
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    Shadowlander
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    Same Goes for Searing Flamesource, not worth 2-3.5k plat

    I do not suggest buying either from the auction house

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    No duh, Sherlock. The greaters have never been about drastic increases in damage. They've always been cherries on top of the cake and luxury items.

    The reason they're valuable is because or rarity and BIS. Any BiS item that is rare will always cost a ton because it's one of the few methods left able to get more DPS once everything else is maxed, which happens incredibly stupidly fast.
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    Telaran 7A65726F's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ral View Post
    I find the OP misleading as it does a bunch of math to establish a percent increase of damage but then simply states that other upgrades are more cost effective without even mentioning what those upgrades are.
    The reason I left out cost efficient alternatives was because it's dependent on gear. I gave a single example using upgraded T3 raid gear. Using that equipment but buying notoriety runes for them instead of upgrading an essence with Charred Flamesource, I could get 246 Wisdom and 45 SP for 600p.

    That works out to +229.5 SP and 1.968% Crit Chance for my Cleric, which I would much rather have over +3.5% Crit Damage, and I'm buying it for 1/5 to 1/6 the cost.

    I am ignoring all stat gains from essences because for my calculations, I didn't need them - adding in the proc ability from Flamesource does not increase the stats on the essence it upgrades (according to every resource I could find online and the in-game tooltip, if I'm wrong, please correct me on this). So the upgrade only gives you +103 Crit Power *occasionally*. And it is the effectiveness of that upgrade which I was weighing against.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7A65726F View Post
    [SIZE="4"]The more Crit Power you have, the less of an effective DPS/HPS increase getting more will have.
    what is diminishing returns

    Really not sure how it's next to worthless, it's that versus nothing? or a silly damage proc. The charred proc actually occurs quite often and has a pretty high uptime.
    Last edited by DMoney817; 06-13-2014 at 10:23 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 7A65726F View Post
    The reason I left out cost efficient alternatives was because it's dependent on gear. I gave a single example using upgraded T3 raid gear. Using that equipment but buying notoriety runes for them instead of upgrading an essence with Charred Flamesource, I could get 246 Wisdom and 45 SP for 600p.

    That works out to +229.5 SP and 1.968% Crit Chance for my Cleric, which I would much rather have over +3.5% Crit Damage, and I'm buying it for 1/5 to 1/6 the cost.

    I am ignoring all stat gains from essences because for my calculations, I didn't need them - adding in the proc ability from Flamesource does not increase the stats on the essence it upgrades (according to every resource I could find online and the in-game tooltip, if I'm wrong, please correct me on this). So the upgrade only gives you +103 Crit Power *occasionally*. And it is the effectiveness of that upgrade which I was weighing against.
    All stat proc greaters have a uptime of 90%+ so they are usually just counted as flat stats. The point is that Charred is the best greater to be had before CP cap because CP has more weight than SP/AP in some specs (Shaman mainly) or has more overall weight than the SP/AP proc essences. Most T2 geared people you see will choose to go for the SP/AP proc ones however because CP cap is a thing. That said, Charred is probably a 400 dps gain at best.
    Last edited by CowGoesMoo; 06-13-2014 at 10:27 AM.
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  14. #14
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    The point of this thread is misleading. If you are at 1195 CP outside of raids (no banner, no feast, no charred proc) then you want to keep your charred. If you are at 1298 outside of raids, then you can drop your charred for something else. It would be foolish to skip out on purchasing a charred if you are no where near 1298 CP. However, if you are within 103 of 1298 (say, 1250), then armor pieces and changes can help you out while simultaneously dropping the charred. However, I feel that this thread is encouraging players who have something like 500 CP to not purchase a charred. This is severely wrong.

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    Ral
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    So your point is that the notoriety runes are more cost effective, great, anyone above T1 raiding most assuredly has these unless they were carried or just raid logs. And yes, they are more cost effective and I agree, if you don't have your gear runed up yet, then you should do that before buying a charred, but pretty much anyone that isn't still progressing on T1 already has that.

    You also can't use T3 since it can't be purchased in platinum (or at a terrible inflated price if you get your fragments from crates)

    I am not sure who you are directing this point to, I assumed people that would be able to upgrade stuff with plat, so a T1 raider moving into T2 but it seems it is either to T3 raiders moving gear around to min/max or T1 raiders that don't even have notoriety runes yet. If the former then I don't know what else they should spend plat on beside upgrading there lessers to greaters, and if it is the later then ya, it isn't as worthwhile as runes and maybe straight up buying T2 pieces.

    My point is that if you are fully T1 geared with all your noteriety, lessers and runes as any raider entering T2 should have, then the charred is pretty much the same effective upgrade as buying T2 gear.

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