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Thread: Reasons behind soul reworks

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    Telaran
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    Default Reasons behind soul reworks

    This question has been nothreing me or a few days; why do souls in RIFT need tweaks, changes and reworks?

    For example, i read under old, really old cleric posts on these forums about the original cleric souls. (http://forums.riftgame.com/game-disc...souls-you.html). They look really different and have gone through a dozen of drastic changes, like the cabalist soul.

    At least a dozen changes? Well, it was surely needed to make the soul playable. But what means playable in terms of today? I guess it means now no more than this: Best healer (for the situation), best tank, best dps (preferably ST), even while supporting. Note there are no differences at tanks or dpsers/supports. Agreed?

    So the reason behind reworks seems to be: make the soul currently best. Give it the best dps, most flexible healing. I doubt this should be happening.

    Remember pyromancer? i think about a year ago when someone asked for help, wanted to know how much damage he should be doing, the answer was that about 24k is really fine (pyromancer being like 1k ahead). Now when i read the stormcaller rework thread seeing parses of 32 being average... And we call for pyro needing rework, since the current top dps seems to be warlock and stormcaller is on the horizon.

    My point is, the reworks are done for the raiding and pvping community, simply to give them a new FotM soul and then go to another. And after some time back to the first one, since we made all other souls more powerful, and this one has to beat them. Cycle.

    My question is on the community: Why do you require reworks?
    Dps increase? Change / I am bored of...? Weird playstyle? Remebering good old (OP) days?

    Don't be like... Hey, my favorite soul does 1 less dps than the other one, qq, buff please!



    Don't be confused, i like seeing souls reworked, having new playstyle, new options. But I don't need the numbers getting insanely high while having easy play. I like playing those under par, just because they are under par (old cab, old SC). Do not forsake everything because it ****s. The world is not turning because of dmgmeters.

  2. #2
    Ascendant Solaxys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kviki View Post
    My question is on the community: Why do you require reworks?
    Dps increase? Change / I am bored of...? Weird playstyle? Remebering good old (OP) days?

    Don't be like... Hey, my favorite soul does 1 less dps than the other one, qq, buff please!
    You answered yourself.
    Last edited by Solaxys; 06-11-2014 at 10:11 AM.

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    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaxys View Post
    You answered yourself.
    Come on, that's not a sensible reason. Devs should not listen to such posts.
    Last edited by Kviki; 06-11-2014 at 10:14 AM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kviki View Post

    Don't be like... Hey, my favorite soul does 1 less dps than the other one, qq, buff please!
    Try "half of my souls are unusable or 8k+ behind others in raid".
    Meciel - Mage - Defer Death - Greybriar
    12/12 T1, 14/15 T2, 1/9 T3

  5. #5
    Telaran
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    Try "half of my souls are unusable or 8k+ behind others in raid".
    And I ask, why should be all souls used in raids? But that's true, you don't want to use it so much behind ... is there any such soul btw? I believe there should not be such differences.

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    Ascendant Solaxys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kviki View Post
    Come on, that's not a sensible reason. Devs should not listen to such posts.
    You'd be surprised.

    People argue about difficulty of specs, how one spec can dominate v. other spec across classes, how one spec is more used v other spec across fights, etc...

    There will be this one person out there who will think X is different than Y because of Z and this person will get on the forums, get a bandwagon rolling, and the devs start looking into it and changing things.

    I still hate it that they removed Burning Fury from Pyro 'cause some idiot whined about how Pyro's hit harder than everyone else in PVP 'cause their crit chance is amazing compared to every other soul for the mage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kviki View Post
    And I ask, why should be all souls used in raids? But that's true, you don't want to use it so much behind ... is there any such soul btw? I believe there should not be such differences.
    SC is worthless in every situation outside the occasional CQ where they have enough Doms. There's one gimmick for SCs in Brothers but it's mainly used as a buff soul for a gimmicky damage trick.

    Doms is only usable in PVP and requires huge amounts of team cooperation. Some uses in PVP for spam interrupts/squirrels on trash mobs. Not applicable in raid fights at all since AP got moved up.

    Pyromancer is by the closest to raid viable but, with the warlock changes, has been relegated to a pure PVP soul. It's ST is about 3k-4k behind Warlock, iirc. It also has target swap issues. The new changes planned have gutted all of its mobility to hopefully give it more turret damage, but how many fights right now aren't all about mobility?

    Necromancer's even worse than Pyro at 6k behind Lock minimum. Only use is a purge on a 5s CD or Soul Bond, but then defiler. Its main skill is a 30s transform and, since it's usually the range pet, you're then stuck with 8s channels for output. Decent in PVP cause of Last Gasp, Essence Link, and 5s purges for harassing healers.

    Ele is even worse at about 7k behind. Its save grace is that it has ridiculous 15s burst every 2 minutes, making it vaguely useful for Thrax. It's burst is all turret style 3s and 4s channels while the rest of the time it runs around shooting people with instants. Unusable in pretty much every raid fight due to piss poor sustain.


    That's the five souls with the most pressing issues. Here's some others:

    Archon is dead at anything above 40 points. Everything above that is cast time boosts and self-buffs. The archon armor overwrites all of the archon's other self-buffs. The only ones with cast time any more are heals and shaving off .1s isn't really going to help much, if at all. Its damage is lower than Pyrochon and provides less raid damage due to no double lava field. It can't even spam purges as fast as pyrochon. Harbichon ****s on it for AE and ST DPS.

    Harbinger, our melee soul, has fallen to the wayside as a DPS spec. It's all burst focused on the transform skill. It also has severe target swap and scaling issues compounding it. In a long fight vs other melees, harb will be, at minimum, 1k behind unless they have some other target to blademark. EAscension also doesn't line up with burst phases since those phases are all 20s whereas ascension requires 30s + prep time to get full damage. Harb ST is actually behind Warlock ST right now. It's mainly now used as hybrid options.

    The only thing really stopping Chloro from being replaced by the new souls right now is that we still have wild growth , living energy, and Veil swaps. Chloros are also the only healers that require wan enemy and ally in range for their heals to trigger as well as having to factor both cast and travel time in. Physicians just got the change chloros have been begging for for a long time, the ability to ST/AE swap with oGCD.

    If Warlock hadn't gotten huge raw numbers buffs, it'd be on the list also. The only notably bad thing about it now is that it lost its ability to actually keep a target feared for PVP purposes.


    Currently, in a raid setting, mages have 4 options:

    Chloro, Archon, Warlock, or Arbiter. If you're not healing, supporting, or tanking, then you have 1 DPS spec that ****s all over the others for everything except pure micro-burn fights.
    Last edited by evantide; 06-11-2014 at 10:58 AM.
    Meciel - Mage - Defer Death - Greybriar
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    Ascendant Solaxys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    SC is worthless in every situation outside the occasional CQ where they have enough Doms. There's one gimmick for SCs in Brothers but it's mainly used as a buff soul for a gimmicky damage trick.

    Doms is only usable in PVP and requires huge amounts of team cooperation. Some uses in PVP for spam interrupts/squirrels on trash mobs. Not applicable in raid fights at all since AP got moved up.

    Pyromancer is by the closest to raid viable but, with the warlock changes, has been relegated to a pure PVP soul. It's ST is about 3k-4k behind Warlock, iirc. It also has target swap issues. The new changes planned have gutted all of its mobility to hopefully give it more turret damage, but how many fights right now aren't all about mobility?

    Necromancer's even worse than Pyro at 6k behind Lock minimum. Only use is a purge on a 5s CD or Soul Bond, but then defiler. Its main skill is a 30s transform and, since it's usually the range pet, you're then stuck with 8s channels for output. Decent in PVP cause of Last Gasp, Essence Link, and 5s purges for harassing healers.

    Ele is even worse at about 7k behind. Its save grace is that it has ridiculous 15s burst every 2 minutes, making it vaguely useful for Thrax. It's burst is all turret style 3s and 4s channels while the rest of the time it runs around shooting people with instants. Unusable in pretty much every raid fight due to piss poor sustain.


    That's the five souls with the most pressing issues. Here's some others:

    Archon is dead at anything above 40 points. Everything above that is cast time boosts and self-buffs. The archon armor overwrites all of the archon's other self-buffs. The only ones with cast time any more are heals and shaving off .1s isn't really going to help much, if at all. Its damage is lower than Pyrochon and provides less raid damage due to no double lava field. It can't even spam purges as fast as pyrochon. Harbichon ****s on it for AE and ST DPS.

    Harbinger, our melee soul, has fallen to the wayside as a DPS spec. It's all burst focused on the transform skill. It also has severe target swap and scaling issues compounding it. In a long fight vs other melees, harb will be, at minimum, 1k behind unless they have some other target to blademark. Harb ST is actually behind Warlock ST right now. It's mainly now used as hybrid options.

    The only thing really stopping Chloro from being replaced by the new souls right now is that we still have wild growth , living energy, and Veil swaps. Chloros are also the only healers that require wan enemy and ally in range for their heals to trigger as well as having to factor both cast and travel time in. Physicians just got the change chloros have been begging for for a long time, the ability to ST/AE swap with oGCD.

    If Warlock hadn't gotten huge raw numbers buffs, it'd be on the list also. The only notably bad thing about it now is that it lost its ability to actually keep a target feared for PVP purposes.
    You kind of... supported his argument.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Solaxys View Post
    You kind of... supported his argument.
    He asked for examples of mages being extremely behind. Our class dev is rebuilding 5/10 souls from the ground up because they're non-viable in anything except super specific situations because of the problems with the class.
    Meciel - Mage - Defer Death - Greybriar
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    Reasons for re-works;
    1) FotM - to keep raiders from getting bored playing the same spec for years

    2) Trion mis-calculate soul scaling with SP / AP / CP across the classes
    eg. T2 maxes out CP and warriors scale amazing with it, leaving other classes behind.

    3) In the place of nerfing content, Trion now seems to prefer slight DPS buffs through gear or reworking.

    4) Seems like a good idea eg. Pyromancer Burning Fury nerf, upcoming Archon "Fix", possibly upcoming Pyro "fix"

    5) Because the other dev just fixed XX/YY and now your class has less dps/movement/rotation - Buff QQ !!

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    Comrade Kervik rules with his people at heart.

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    Shield of Telara
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    Quote Originally Posted by evantide View Post
    Try "half of my souls are unusable or 8k+ behind others in raid".

    only half? only usefull souls for mages are chloro and warlock period and if you want a good hybrid pyro /chon but if you go 61 points pyro is useless to raid and archon is not good.
    Last edited by elfaraon; 06-12-2014 at 06:39 PM.

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    Thank you, evantide, for explaining the state of mage class to me. +1

    Basically, you all see it like this: "The spec did not reach the highest niveau? => It's crap, good for nothing, rework or better erase from existence.""It is stronger than anything else (like 50dps more)? This is the new spec we must take and forget the rest of the world!" I take it. But don't like.

    @Delorrian: Arguments 2,3,5 are what i asked for. And 1 is also a plausible reason, no one wants probably play the same game over years, even though it does not mean it will be better.


    I must admit i am an idealist and like to see a stable line in the development. I can think of two scenarios:

    1) We want to make every calling and every soul viable in the (end-)content. Thus we improve the worst one at this moment to be the new standard.This way will the souls be rotated and FotM happens all the time. People will be forced to obey, if they want to stay current.
    2) We choose a few specs that will be our "raiding", or "soloing" and so on... and forget everything else. People will choose these classes, because they are best in that role. Eerytime we feel there is an imbalance, we buff the lowest spec.

    I see both guidelines in the light of current reworks. cabalist, warlock, paragon, upcoming stormcaller and whatever else are classified as raid dpsing souls and get buffed to be best. On the other hand, soloing souls like elementalist or druid are left alone, because they are good right now ... not raid-dps-wise, but in their own way. This is why i was curious whether there is need to rework all the classes for top-raiders, or rather try finding them all some niche and do small corrections only.

    I am confused, because i cant clearly see any of these scenarios happening. What line do the reworks fit in?

    And all of the forum threads requesting to update their beloved soul bring more chaos. Do people want all raid-ready souls all the time, FotM souls, niche souls or what? On one hand we classify shaman as the top ST cleric dps soul, but on the other hand we like it being great AoE. Now we have cabalist being given some "cleave" feeling and the thread requested to bring his ST dps competitive (=top). After that, shaman show up and request other changes... I am only confused in what the community wants.

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    Same problem that most MMO's fall into, there ends up being a "cookie cutter" spec that does the most damages in raids, pvp or anything else.

    Happened in WoW and I am not surprised it is happening here

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kviki View Post
    Thank you, evantide, for explaining the state of mage class to me. +1

    Basically, you all see it like this: "The spec did not reach the highest niveau? => It's crap, good for nothing, rework or better erase from existence.""It is stronger than anything else (like 50dps more)? This is the new spec we must take and forget the rest of the world!" I take it. But don't like.
    Not really? I'm saying those specs don't have a purpose beyond a certain threshold. SC and Dom basically fight for the same spot as AE trash specs, but Dom's infinitely superior due to more support options and faster burst. There's no fights anywhere with giant sustained AE long enough to make SC stronger than Dom. Then you compare both of these class to Sabs and Cabbys and their utility and DPS is blown completely out of the water. A mage playing either SC or Dom in a raid is a spot you could have made better by putting a Sab or Cabby there.

    It's situations like that, where multiple classes fulfill the same purpose yet one is blatantly superior that make a rework necessary because those souls are basically invalidated. It's not asking for blatant superiority, more of wanting an equal chance at filling the same role.

    And it's not just 50 DPS more. It's in 2k-4k DPS differences that make specs become the number one. Pyro is only 2k-3k behind Warlock in a pure 1v1 with no target swaps or AE, but add any dual targetting or swapping and Warlock absolutely blows Pyro out of the water, ranging from 3k-12k DPS differences. It's that bad and, since Lock already is superior for ST, means Pyro sees no use any more outside PVP.

    On the other hand, soloing souls like elementalist or druid are left alone, because they are good right now ... not raid-dps-wise, but in their own way. This is why i was curious whether there is need to rework all the classes for top-raiders, or rather try finding them all some niche and do small corrections only.
    .
    Actually Ele's getting reworked too because the best mage solo spec is Harb, which is also getting reworked since it has its own glaring issues.

    Again, that's what I mean by souls having no purpose after a point. Ele and Necro are decent solo specs, but Harb consistently blows them both out fo the water in terms of soling, Raid DPS, and overworld PVP. The only places they can remotely try to catch up is in PVP and CQ, where they're only very marginally better due to being ranged rather than melee.

    Kervik's not reworking all the souls only for top raiders. He's trying to differentiate all of their purposes and playstyles so that there actually is a reason to finally use the other souls again by augmenting their strengths and giving them real weaknesses.
    Meciel - Mage - Defer Death - Greybriar
    12/12 T1, 14/15 T2, 1/9 T3

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