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Thread: Supports in 5 Mans (Please bring math)

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    Default Supports in 5 Mans (Please bring math)

    So apparently it has been going around that a support in a 5 man dungeon brings less dps than a third dps.

    Primarily this is because of 2 things. First when people hear support they think 'extra heals'. Which in rift, this is not the case, or at least the additional heals are not the primary purpose of the support, although beastmaster and bard do have them.

    Secondly, people only look at their own personal damage on parsers and not the total group damage. Which guarenteed will make it appear that you have the lowest contribution out of the 'three dps' on the team, unless you are overgeared.

    Just to throw out some numbers, on my level 50 mage I parse 2400 as archon (don't use the preset pyrochon, it is garbage) and 2700 as necro. 60 warrior I parse 9.5k as beastmaster and as paragon 10k. Both tests were on single target at the dummy. Sadly I do not have a rogue to use any numbers with =/

    But my own numbers are meaningless other than a reference point (since your gear is likely very different). If you have not played a support spec, I highly recommend you make one and parse against the dummy. (For 2 minutes - very important). Don't use your raid super buff if you have it. Look at your damage numbers for your support and your highest single target damage spec. Hold that number wherever you want so you can later use it as reference.

    I'm going to use my own numbers with the lower of the two: Archon vs Necro. My damage is ~88% or a loss of 12.5%. There are two abilites that both the warrior and archon have that maintain a constant (as long as they are in your rotation) 5% damage and 5 crit chance to the whole group. If we assume the group has zero crit power, the crit chance increases damage by 50% for a total of 7.5% group damage increase.

    Even if the two dps are the only damage dealers in the group, the loss has been recouperated and exceeded by 2.5%. However assuming you are on top of it, illuminate (and spotters call) make up approximately 5% of the damage that is ADDED to all group members inflicting some form of repeated damage. Even if we assume your healer is doing zero damage, that's still 3 other people that benefit from this buff. So a total of 13.2% (88% x 5 x 3) extra damage.

    In total running a support nets damage 15.7% higher than running dps, in a worst case scenario, with those 3 buffs alone. However that isn't even touching on the statistic buffs you are providing, the possibility that your dps have crit power, or the hyper raid buff you can give your group if you are having issues with dps checks.

    But seriously don't listen to me, run your own parses and see for yourself. A rogues perpective (numbers) on this would be appreciated.
    Last edited by CdrRogdan; 04-23-2014 at 04:50 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdrRogdan View Post
    60 warrior I parse 9.5k as beastmaster and as paragon 10k.
    Just for reference, could we get your AP/PC/CP stats in these specs?

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    Ascendant Primalthirst's Avatar
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    This has been discussed to death many, many times. Archon/Bard/BM is not a DPS increase in 5 mans, regardless of gear level. It wasn't worth it when people initially did the math and DPS did 8k and it sure as $#!% isn't worth it now when people do >25k.
    Nope.

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    My stats are
    2208, 1770, 132 in beastmaster
    2747, 1700, 132 in paragon

    I'm using blue weapons from chronicles (182 dps each) -sad face.
    For my mage he's gone up a few levels and acquired some new gear, so I would have to reparse (I can if you like) but he was outfitted in level 50 legacy purples from dungeons at the time. In response to primal, I said bring math, you know this mysterious math that you say has been done, not your super awesome feelings about the matter.

    Additionally (and this is incredibly important) if (using math) the support starts to fall off after a certain damage threshold, than the statement that supports are less damage in five mans only applies to players that are already geared. And new players are being misinformed.

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    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    The fact that your cp is so low is why you dont see this dps difference people are talking about. Paragon will faaaaaaaar outpace beastmaster at high cp and the same goes for the other support specs.

    And really youre referencing the numbers of a lvl 50 mage like it will prove something (I dont care that you disclaimered it afterwards, if you bring it into an argument youre using it as an argument).

    Point is that supports dont give enough dps to the group because theres only two people that can use it as opposed to a raids 10+.
    Last edited by Fiskerton; 04-24-2014 at 09:16 AM.
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    Because bleeds don't crit?

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    Rift Master Dasmani's Avatar
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    Also, pyrochon is strictly better than archon.

    The only support worth running in 5-mans is harbchon
    Last edited by Dasmani; 04-24-2014 at 02:24 PM.

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    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdrRogdan View Post
    Because bleeds don't crit?
    Paragon has more innate crit chance than beastmaster.
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    I believe you have that backwards. Beastmaster/Paragon has more innate crit chance than Pure Paragon. The 9% for followup attacks is trumped by 5% to everything. Both builds can use flowing strikes and way of the river.

    On another note, saying that a less than 60 example is pointless and then giving the advice "Don't use support" to those same people (under 60) is incredibly negligent.

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    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    Actually, between Setting Moon, Strike Like Iron and Unleashed, that 9% crit for followups is much better. This isn't even including <30% Final Blessings, Alacrity or Shifting Blades (because since you mentioned 5% crit, you're not using Shifting Blades). Furthermore, beastmaster dps (because it's all dots) takes so long to reach peak you can kill bosses much faster with just straight dps.

    At the same time, who cares, just use whatever the hell you want >_> I'm just saying support doesn't have as much dps in dungeon settings. Like said before, harbchon is the only one that competes.
    Last edited by Fiskerton; 04-24-2014 at 06:02 PM.
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    Fwiw harbchon is my highest dummy parsing spec by a mile (without flaring) so i dont see why you shouldnt play it in experts.
    even pyrochon parses higher/equal to warlock/harb.
    Last edited by paschl; 04-24-2014 at 06:01 PM.
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    That's just it.. you can't just play whatever the hell you want. Most of the time, sure, It won't matter; as long the the healer and the tank are geared enough do to the boss/dungeon, the dps can text each other while the fight occurs.

    However, dungeons that have dps checks are much better tackled with a support. Can you complete them without a support? Of course you can! Just out gear the dungeon. But out of the handful of cases where a group I was in struggled to meet a check, it was solved by having the 'support' swap into an actual support role.

    The issue here isn't whether or not dungeons can be completed without a support, it's that players are being told that support is 'less' overall damage, when it couldn't be further from the truth. That said.. math please.. I suspect there is some value of dps that makes a supports presence less effective than another dps (I know BM has a time requirement) but what that value is, and how it is (has been?) determined I don't know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CdrRogdan View Post
    That's just it.. you can't just play whatever the hell you want. Most of the time, sure, It won't matter; as long the the healer and the tank are geared enough do to the boss/dungeon, the dps can text each other while the fight occurs.

    However, dungeons that have dps checks are much better tackled with a support. Can you complete them without a support? Of course you can! Just out gear the dungeon. But out of the handful of cases where a group I was in struggled to meet a check, it was solved by having the 'support' swap into an actual support role.

    The issue here isn't whether or not dungeons can be completed without a support, it's that players are being told that support is 'less' overall damage, when it couldn't be further from the truth. That said.. math please.. I suspect there is some value of dps that makes a supports presence less effective than another dps (I know BM has a time requirement) but what that value is, and how it is (has been?) determined I don't know.
    Yes those dungeon dps checks of 6k [5,952dps to be precise] (which i can pull solo in a tank spec) are really tight.

    IDH as a raid requires a whole 40k? dps.

    And for the record 15% raid dps more of **** all is still **** all.
    Last edited by CrackaJack; 04-25-2014 at 10:02 AM.

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    Plane Walker Dylbert's Avatar
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    Not really math, but here's some numbers for you: in a DPS spec, I can do 18K-22K ST on a dungeon boss (depending on the spec I am running). We'll take the 18K. On a good day, I can do 6K-8K ST DPS on my bard if I go all out DPS on it. I'm reasonably confident that my buffs are not causing the other two DPS (or even all four of the other party members) to do an additional combined 10K DPS.

    It's a DPS loss for me to go bard. The fact that I can do it and we still beat the dungeon is not an argument in favor of me using bard. You start taking support/DPS hybrids, that's a whole different discussion...
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    Prophet of Telara Seranov's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CdrRogdan View Post
    That's just it.. you can't just play whatever the hell you want. Most of the time, sure, It won't matter; as long the the healer and the tank are geared enough do to the boss/dungeon, the dps can text each other while the fight occurs.

    However, dungeons that have dps checks are much better tackled with a support. Can you complete them without a support? Of course you can! Just out gear the dungeon. But out of the handful of cases where a group I was in struggled to meet a check, it was solved by having the 'support' swap into an actual support role.

    The issue here isn't whether or not dungeons can be completed without a support, it's that players are being told that support is 'less' overall damage, when it couldn't be further from the truth. That said.. math please.. I suspect there is some value of dps that makes a supports presence less effective than another dps (I know BM has a time requirement) but what that value is, and how it is (has been?) determined I don't know.
    This would be a valid argument if a group of 1 tank doing 500 DPS, 1 healer doing 0 DPS, and 3 DPS doing 2000 DPS each weren't capable of beating pretty much every enrage timer in every dungeon. 2000 DPS. For the record, my second warrior hit 60 today and does 10k+ DPS already.

    Supports are usually a hinderance in dungeons. They do bad DPS (except the aforementioned Harbchon), they don't buff everyone else's DPS all that much.
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