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Thread: Energy/Charge Management

  1. #1
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    Default Energy/Charge Management

    SPOILER: Although this is not intended to be solely about Mages, it may indeed turn into that.

    Let me start by saying that I play a 60 mage/cleric/rogue. I also have a 53 Warrior, but struggle getting him over the top as I am not a fan of true melee specs.

    I think most reasonable people would agree that mages/clerics are played the least in rift. Browse through the raid recruitment threads and you will notice that most guilds need more magical users. Trion's response to this is "lets have every soul do everything, then it wont matter because youll be able to effectively raid with 20 of any class".

    My problem is with innefective mechanics that limit the gameplay for some classes. Of these, charge management has to be the worst. I struggle even to think of what "charge" is, other than running after someone really fast. Its like the design for mages was to knock 20% off of the top of their dps, but give a way to get that dps back in a limited fashion.

    To the best of my knowledge, clerics don't have a similar mechanic, rogues/warriors used to have energy(stamina) issues, but whenever it got to the point that it had to be managed Trion either lowered the energy cost or increased energy regeneration. You can at least make a case for getting tired after swinging hunks of metal repeatedly over and over. To the best of my knowledge there isn't a mechanic that allows them to get increased dps other than energy. For the most part energy issues are a thing of the past.

    What should happen? Remove energy and charge management completely, and increase mage skills across the board for the removal of charge management. Lets at least partially level a playing field that's been at a 45 degree angle almost since release.

    Oh and while we are it, please remove the veil limitation from chloros
    Last edited by Its Me; 03-27-2014 at 09:45 AM. Reason: edit

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Its Me View Post
    What should happen? Remove energy and charge management completely
    uh...

    Quote Originally Posted by Its Me View Post
    Oh and while we are it, please remove the veil limitation from chloros
    ...

    Low effort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Inject View Post
    uh...



    ...

    Low effort.

    Pot, meet Kettle

  4. #4
    Prophet of Telara Fiskerton's Avatar
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    charge is an important part of the mage rotation and it's what gives mages their burst. although you're 100% correct in that it is redundant (they can easily just be buffs), it makes the mage playstyle far more interesting than other callings. if you were to use this line of reasoning, you can easily say that everything is redundant, just give us one button to spam that does X dps.

    in the spirit of that, my request would be to remove mana completely from mages. THAT is redundant and only serves to limit parses. at least on clerics, mana consumption is an important aspect of healing (especially healing effusion spamming), but for chloromancers there's no such mana management and for dps it's just a hassle. the only way to get back mana is to either stop dpsing (really frikkin bad. at least healers can stop healing and not fail at their job) or have something like Introspection (which most mage specs don't)

    Veil limitation is in place because chloros would then be so overpowered in pvp. I wish they would take out the synthesis (not the veil) cooldown, though.
    Last edited by Fiskerton; 03-27-2014 at 10:59 AM.
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  5. #5
    Plane Touched takadox's Avatar
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    Your post shows quite clearly how ignorant you are.

    There are five general Mage specs that are used in raids (there are many variants to each of the following but the core gameplay remains the same). For DPS you use Warlock or Harbinger (Necro doesn't count because the one and only niche it fills is burst AoE. In every other situation Harb or Lock beat Necro), for support you use Archon/Harb or Archon/Pyro, and for heals you use Chloromancer. So let's look at how each of these specs utilizes Charge:

    Warlock: Charge is completely irrelevant. Even without the Defile bug you gain Charge far faster than you can spend it. Warlocks do not have any concept of "Charge management".

    Harbinger: Your slashing attacks consume 5 Charge. With decent RNG you will be using your EG procs to keep up Charge and you will generally never run out. The only time you need to manage Charge with Harb is when you need to use Planar Shield, which is generally only useful in PvP.

    Harbchon: Exactly the same as Harbinger except that you need to make sure you have at least 50 Charge every 5 minutes. There's still no real Charge management going on here.

    Pyrochon: If you are a min/maxer then you can perfect your Charge usage by toggling on IC for specific abilities, but not doing so will only minimally impact your DPS. You can just save up 100 Charge, pop IC until you run out of Charge, and repeat, and you will do just fine. Pyrochon should only be used on fights where it's impossible to melee anyways because Harbchon does significantly more DPS and provides the same support buffs.

    Chloromancer: Similar to Pyrochon, you can save your Charge for periods of large tank/raid damage to maximize your heals, or you can just toggle on EV when you have full Charge. The only real management here is when you also have WG up, but seeing as any five year old can manage that there is really no problem with it.

    So in total there are only two Mage specs that actually have some form of Charge management, and the level of skill needed to properly manage Charge in those two specs is minimal.

    As far as Rogues go, there are only two specs in which you can actively manage your Energy; Nightblade and Tactician. Seeing as full Tact is almost never used anymore there is really only Nightblade. And Energy management with Nightblade comes down to simply keeping up 2 stacks of Emptiness or 4-5 stacks of Emptiness depending on your raid makeup.

    Inject what you are asking for is that every class be homogenized and playable by a comatose patient. Trion is already doing enough of that with the changes to tanks, we don't need more whiners like you convincing them to follow Blizzard's example and put this game in the ground.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched takadox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by takadox View Post
    Inject what you are asking for is that every class
    Meant to write Its Me, not Inject.

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    Quote Originally Posted by takadox View Post
    Your post shows quite clearly how ignorant you are.
    Generally at this point, I stop reading. Just because we have chosen to disagree on a topic is no reason to start trolling with name calling.

    I will say a couple things though -- First, a lot of mages (myself included) don't want to play Harbinger. Melee skills are not why I play a mage, if I want to swing a sword I will play my Rogue or Warrior. You also completely left out 61 Pyro, which is what quite a few us do like to play.

    You can rationalize charge management all you wish, but the point is that we are balanced around charge and our skills are less effective because of that fact, and we are the only calling that is balanced in this way. Maybe a better plan would be to go with what Trion has done with melee classes and just ensure that we never run out?

    If certain classes are balanced around a mechanic, and your admission is that they don't really use it, whats the point of having it.? Indeed, you stated that Warlock "gets charge back faster than they can use it", but you seem to think that is ok. If that is the case, maybe youre right and we make charge and energy work the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by takadox View Post
    what you are asking for is that every class be homogenized and playable by a comatose patient.
    In 2.7 every class will be homogenized by allowing all callings to fulfill all roles. As far as being played by a comatose patient -- 3 of the callings are already there.

  8. #8
    Plane Touched takadox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Its Me View Post
    Generally at this point, I stop reading. Just because we have chosen to disagree on a topic is no reason to start trolling with name calling.
    Saying you are ignorant is not trolling or namecalling, nor does it have anything to do witht he fact that we disagree on a topic. It has everything to do with the fact that you flouted a 20% DPS loss for Mages who can't handle Charge when in fact there is only one DPS spec (which is sub-par and has no real use anyway) that even needs to worry about Charge. That is why it is a fact that you are ignorant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Its Me View Post
    I will say a couple things though -- First, a lot of mages (myself included) don't want to play Harbinger. Melee skills are not why I play a mage, if I want to swing a sword I will play my Rogue or Warrior. You also completely left out 61 Pyro, which is what quite a few us do like to play.
    As I mentioned above, Pyro fulfills no purpose in raiding that another DPS spec does not fulfill with better results. If you want to DPS but don't like melee then you should be playing Warlock. Now obviously that's not a requirement and everyone is of course free to choose their own playstyle. However considering the fact that you are complaining about not having enough DPS it seems kind of silly that the spec you use as an example of your argument is one that pulls sub-par DPS even with perfect Charge management. You're just contradicting the very foundation of your own argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Its Me View Post
    You can rationalize charge management all you wish, but the point is that we are balanced around charge and our skills are less effective because of that fact, and we are the only calling that is balanced in this way. Maybe a better plan would be to go with what Trion has done with melee classes and just ensure that we never run out?
    This is again why I called you ignorant. Neither of our two top DPS specs are less effective due to Charge. As I said, our top ranged DPS spec (Lock) completely ignores Charge, it basically doesn't exist for them. And Harbinger barely ever runs out of Charge and when they do it is only for one or two GCDs, not enough to have any real impact on DPS. Just because Mages have one extra mechanic that is largely ignored does not mean we are disadvantaged.

    Quote Originally Posted by Its Me View Post
    If certain classes are balanced around a mechanic, and your admission is that they don't really use it, whats the point of having it.? Indeed, you stated that Warlock "gets charge back faster than they can use it", but you seem to think that is ok. If that is the case, maybe youre right and we make charge and energy work the same.
    Ignorance once again. I never said the Charge mechanic was in a good place, I simply said it does not reduce the effectiveness of Mages. Could/Should the Charge mechanic be revamped to be more interesting and require more skill to use? Absolutely. And this is coming. The way Arbiter actively uses Charge is a test run of new Charge mechanics. With the coming of 3.0 and future updates Trion is going to be revamping the way Charge works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Its Me View Post
    In 2.7 every class will be homogenized by allowing all callings to fulfill all roles. As far as being played by a comatose patient -- 3 of the callings are already there.
    This is a common misconception. Just because everyone can perform the same role does not mean everyone is the same because different classes perform the same role in different ways. For example, Warriors are being given the equivalent of a Warden spec and will have very powerful AoE heals. Warrior single target healing however will be very sub-par to Chloro/Puri/Phys. So while Warriors will be able to heal, they will not be able to heal in the same way that the other classes can. Another example is the distinction between Bards and Archons. Yes they both fill the support role, but they do so in very different ways and are not at all the same.

    You will never ever see a successful raid composed of 20 players of a single class, or even 10 one class and 10 of another. It won't work. Even though every class can perform the same general role, each class still brings different buffs/utilities/playstyles to the raid.

    Trion is not homogenizing the classes by giving them more roles to fill, they are homogenizing the classes by combining the specific utilities for each role that each class brings to the table. This is a fairly subtle but very important distinction.

    My point earlier about tanks being homogenized had nothing to do with the fact that Mages will become tanks. What I was referring to was the fact that most tanks will be getting the same utility abilities that originally only one tanking class had. That is what true homogenization is, and removing the Charge mechanic from Mages would be a massive victory for homogenization.

  9. #9
    Rift Chaser pit81's Avatar
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    Energy Managment doesnt apply to rogue class and if you say it does then you doing something wrong.

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