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Thread: Concerns Over Support/Pure Souls

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    Rift Disciple fangGWJ's Avatar
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    Default Concerns Over Support/Pure Souls

    I was just thinking that there may be a pretty significant flaw in the calling/soul class system. It centers around the popularity of support souls and the people who want to play pure classes. These classes are designed to be mediocre when soloing, but essential in groups. But their role in groups is in jeopardy.

    I am concerned that pure support souls will be renedered useless with the way current things work. If you take the bard for example, they don't have much use other than their buffs and a couple of group heals. Theses benefits seem like they could be powerful but at the same time, they are constrained by the fact that you need to build up combo points and monster hate to use them at their greatest effect. So the bard skills seem in a conundrum where they will either be of limited use, or they will need to constantly teeter on the brink of over aggro in order to be effective.

    A similar problem arises with the most powerful DPS specs. Some of these pure souls seem so powerful that I think in groups they will find themselves in another either or situation. It seems they will have a hard time scaling back damage to not draw aggro. Or they will be completely bored because they will have to pace themselves out so long and only be able to use a fraction of their abilities in order to not pull aggro from the tank.

    Of course this can be solved easily by mixing up their soul selections but there seems to be a lot of people who have expectations of viability as a pure class.

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    Rift Disciple Silverthorn's Avatar
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    For pure classes, dps for example, theres no reason trion can't throw in a threat dump skill/talent. I'd also imagine that if any particular soul needs tweaking due to it being underutilized by the general populace, alterations will be made to "spice" it up.

    I can see many months of fine tuning after launch.

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    Champion 13moons's Avatar
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    i honestly think the intention is to encourage mixing it up. never being static in your build selection will most likely bring the best results for a given situation. a pure build may well be the best choice at certain times, and others not so much.

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    Plane Touched Alaraca's Avatar
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    being that we have no idea how the threat systems works... you cant make those assumptions... i dont remember anywhere it saying that the Bard buffs were contingent on their threat... Secondly like a previous poster said Trion can always add in a threat dump ability... third there is no information on how a Tank will build aggro or threat yet, there is a large possiblity that a main tank Warrior Champion, Paladin, Warlord might pull 50% more threat then the best DPS... I for one as a DPSer have always loved being able to ride that fine line of almost pulling threat with every spell i cast but never actually getting it.... cause most threat systems require you to have 110+% of the tanks threat to pull off of him,with well timed taunts that could be upwards of 150%, so if as a dpser i can keep my threat at 2% less then that pull point then im obviously going to do the most DPS possible and pwn at playing my class....
    "Few are selected to to gaze into the chasm that gave us our power, most are devoured from within, yet a chosen few have the will to walk away from such discord and torment with the true knowledge of what we serve. Transformed with eyes of pure hatred, of utter disdain, bound to its will, the embodiment of a demon. And I, the greatest of its children, am here to show you true pain..." -Maerawn

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    Rift Disciple fangGWJ's Avatar
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    The bard's heals are the skills that I am concerned will be a double edged sword. Yes it could just as easily be a viable heal with 2 combo points as with 5 combo points. The danger is, that if it requires 5 combo points to be effective, the bard will be in the situation where they will have to pull double aggro in order to be effective. One set of aggro is from the damage done on the skills that generate the 5 combo points. (it doesn't appear that there are any non-damaging combo point building skills) The other aggro will be applied from the heal that will be cast right after the 5 combo points are reached.

    How long the combo points will stay on a target once they are attained, I don't know but the possibility is there for frustration from drawing too much aggro or not being effective enough or as good as can be.

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    Rift Disciple Findywen's Avatar
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    I am not sure that it will take that much for Bards to build up thier combo points for thier heals etc.

    Power Chord gives 2 combo points, with 2 points spent in Improved Power Chord you are getting 3 points. Throw in a cadence and you have 5 combo points in 10 seconds? (guessing) And meanwhile you have done base of 42 dmg over 10 seconds. Obviously that dmg will increase with dex, and im guessing lvl. But you arent talking about hitting some huge massive dmg abilities to get 5 combo points.

    you are right though I have seen a limited number of hate wipe/deaggro abilities. I dont know that that is a bad thign though, It could be interesting to see if they have used Hate/aggro as a balancing aspect to raid encounters. to many games these days are jsut about how fast you can spam all your buttons.

    we shall see

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    Telaran mairsile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangGWJ
    A similar problem arises with the most powerful DPS specs. Some of these pure souls seem so powerful that I think in groups they will find themselves in another either or situation. It seems they will have a hard time scaling back damage to not draw aggro. Or they will be completely bored because they will have to pace themselves out so long and only be able to use a fraction of their abilities in order to not pull aggro from the tank.
    Two things here. First, defensive-oriented tanks could benefit from damage inflicting taunts that did not use a timer. Thus, they can keep spamming taunt. Along with their DPS, they should be able to keep aggro from the higher DPS souls. Secondly, the DPS/defense capabilities of each tank soul should not differ tremendously. A DPS tank obviously should deal out more damage than a defensive tank; and a defensive tank should have greater survivability than a DPS tank. However, the difference should not be so great that the DPS tank is as squishy as a cloth caster nor should the defensive tank hit like a low DPS support soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by fangGWJ
    Of course this can be solved easily by mixing up their soul selections but there seems to be a lot of people who have expectations of viability as a pure class.
    I believe pure souls should have an obvious advantage in certain aspects. For instance, I could be a "Jack of all trades," but by specializing in multiple souls, I may end up doing less damage and experience more resists/misses than someone who is more specialized in the same souls. In short, I could be a Pure Pyromancer and do very high damage with little resists - or I could be a Pyromancer with two other souls and greater "utility" but do far less damage and get resists a lot more..

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    Quote Originally Posted by mairsile View Post
    I believe pure souls should have an obvious advantage in certain aspects.
    But that's exactly how it works now, isnt it? Only those who focus on a pure soul and invest all points in one class can open all root abilities. Though if course the practiality of this will depend on how powerful these abilities are.

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    Soulwalker
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    I think bards will do just fine, look at L2, I forget what the buff class was but they were always one of the highest leveled character because top players want the extra advantage of even a slight buff. I would assume most top guilds will have a few bards and they will be the second character in static exp groups after the tank.

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    Plane Walker Gorezin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mairsile View Post
    I believe pure souls should have an obvious advantage in certain aspects. For instance, I could be a "Jack of all trades," but by specializing in multiple souls, I may end up doing less damage and experience more resists/misses than someone who is more specialized in the same souls. In short, I could be a Pure Pyromancer and do very high damage with little resists - or I could be a Pyromancer with two other souls and greater "utility" but do far less damage and get resists a lot more..
    If I have to go "pure" spec to do the best dps,the best buffs, or have the least resists then the system is badly flawed.
    If I play mage I should be able to put out the same dps using 3 souls as a pure spec would. my hope is that the spells/skills will scale with points,lvl,traning.

    If you want to go all the way to the top of a spec to get the last ablitiy great , but if I want two or three souls it shouldn't be a detriment.

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    Telaran mairsile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorezin View Post
    If I have to go "pure" spec to do the best dps,the best buffs, or have the least resists then the system is badly flawed.
    If I play mage I should be able to put out the same dps using 3 souls as a pure spec would. my hope is that the spells/skills will scale with points,lvl,traning.

    If you want to go all the way to the top of a spec to get the last ablitiy great , but if I want two or three souls it shouldn't be a detriment.
    I'll use this as an example: A tank who goes 35 defensive/16 DPS souls and hits just as hard as someone who is a pure 51 DPS tank soul does not make sense. Why do so many players today expect their characters to be exceptional at everything? Take a look at the video they played earlier of the Assassin who added a few points into the Ranger soul. Doing so did not make that Assassin have the lethal ranged capabilities equal to that of a specialized Ranger - it simply gave them the ability to finish off a fleeing adversary using ranged attacks.

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    Champion of Telara Selene's Avatar
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    I think there's multiple types of pure here. One is a pure soul, in which you spend all your points in that soul tree. Another is purity of intention, in which you spend points across multiple souls to fulfill the same role. For example: say you want to be a better tank. One role might be a pure Paladin. Another might be a mix of Paladin and Reaver. Now, if all the points are spent in tanking abilities, I honestly don't see why the second one shouldn't tank as well as the first. If you spent points in PvP stuff and still expect to tank just as well then...there's a problem.

    The 51 point abilities are great, and I do think we'll see a lot of pure souls for raiding. On the other hand, you get a lot more abilities if you spend points in multiple souls. Someone might decide to shore up one soul's weaknesses by taking several key talents from another. The dev's challenge, in this case, is to make both options viable.

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    Plane Walker Rawr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fangGWJ View Post

    I am concerned that pure support souls will be renedered useless with the way current things work. If you take the bard for example, they don't have much use other than their buffs and a couple of group heals. Theses benefits seem like they could be powerful but at the same time, they are constrained by the fact that you need to build up combo points and monster hate to use them at their greatest effect. So the bard skills seem in a conundrum where they will either be of limited use, or they will need to constantly teeter on the brink of over aggro in order to be effective..
    First off it is way too premature to assess what types of classes are going to be rendered useless. The Devs are still constructing the game.
    second, when did buffs and group heals become trivial and useless?
    third, the scenario you described above sounds like a class that requires a skillful player to generate its effectiveness in group settings. well, damn, I hope they use that same kind of construction on all of the classes.

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    Telaran Nekomimimode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorezin View Post
    If I have to go "pure" spec to do the best dps,the best buffs, or have the least resists then the system is badly flawed.
    If I play mage I should be able to put out the same dps using 3 souls as a pure spec would. my hope is that the spells/skills will scale with points,lvl,traning.

    If you want to go all the way to the top of a spec to get the last ablitiy great , but if I want two or three souls it shouldn't be a detriment.
    You have a point here, BUT even now playing with the soul-calc with only the 3 availible souls in the caster archetype, i was able to achieve a very nice synergy that is (imo) even better than "pure" 51 points soul. Im sure that in the release "mixed" souls will be even better than pure ones. And as for 51 point perks - they will be required in quite special situations i think.

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    Telaran mairsile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    I think there's multiple types of pure here. One is a pure soul, in which you spend all your points in that soul tree. Another is purity of intention, in which you spend points across multiple souls to fulfill the same role. For example: say you want to be a better tank. One role might be a pure Paladin. Another might be a mix of Paladin and Reaver. Now, if all the points are spent in tanking abilities, I honestly don't see why the second one shouldn't tank as well as the first. If you spent points in PvP stuff and still expect to tank just as well then...there's a problem.
    I agree with you on that, and is why I addressed the issue more along the lines of soul(role) types rather than just a pure single soul, which is one way to look at the subject. I just believe that if person A puts 51 points in Fire Magic (Pyromancy) and person B only has 15 points in Fire Magic (Pyromancy), that person A should not only deal more Fire damage than person B, but he/she should encounter far less resists than person B when Fire magic is being used.

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