+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: Very Little / Too Much Soul Overlap

  1. #1
    Rift Disciple Autarch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    132

    Default Very Little / Too Much Soul Overlap

    Flicking through the talent trees, I've noticed that there's either too little or too much class overlap between the various souls. Some of them don't work together at all or they run over each other's abilities far too much. This worries me a little bit because it could have disastrous results when we get into game.

    What I mean is that classes either have talent trees completely specialised to their own talents (look at Purifiers, the only useful things from there for anyone not a pure purifier are the Blessings, and they only effect the purifier and only one can be up at a time) or completely overlap with other talent trees and having both of them would be useless.

    It means that specialised characters will be unwanted since it seems to be fairly easy to have a character that is a Master of All Trades. There are some major synergies (I mean, I couldn't imagine a healing character without Warden from what it's current state is, THAT is a class that synergises with EVERYTHING) but there's either too much overlap between abilities or far too little.

    Does this worry anyone else?

    To sum up my concerns:-
    • Too much overlap between certain classes in terms of abilities (useable skills) means that there's no point in having more than one soul.
    • Too little synergy in terms of ability boosts (passive skills) means it's useless to pick up certain classes and better to just have a much more well rounded character who has no major flaws.
    • These both lead to boring "Master/Jack of All Trades" characters that are capable of doing everything to a degree.

  2. #2
    General of Telara luci's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    768

    Default

    I'm not saying that you're wrong or that you're right, however I do want to point out that the data on classes that people got from the conventions may or may not be completely different from what is being seen in the alpha( they said that it was an older version of the game at pax) and is it safe to assume that you were looking at the role builder site where you can look at how the souls work together?

    Computer: Massive sexy beast that rocks your socks off

  3. #3
    Plane Touched Leovinus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    123

    Default

    It doesn't really worry me excessively. I see single soul builds being more intended and useful in tougher end game style content. Like a raid will probably want at least one pure bard and one pure defensive tank, maybe a few pure single soul healer types. The jack of all trades will definitely come with the downside of master of none in that style of gameplay. I suspect the multi-soul builds are more intended for day-to-day stuff. This might not hold with dps builds, I haven't looked closely at those. I could see that dps builds would be more likely to hybridize even in raid builds, depending on the strength of their deep root abilities.

    I can see excessive overlap, though I'm not sure that's a huge worry, some soul combination simply won't be as synergistic as others. This is to be expected in a game with this type of skill setup. In Ultima online, you wouldn't take tactics and no melee skill because it just didn't make any sense. The beauty of this game is specs will be swappable, so if things change down the road and are rebalanced, your work isn't wasted.

  4. #4
    Rift Disciple forestwhitakereye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Autarch View Post
    Flicking through the talent trees, I've noticed that there's either too little or too much class overlap between the various souls. Some of them don't work together at all or they run over each other's abilities far too much. This worries me a little bit because it could have disastrous results when we get into game.

    What I mean is that classes either have talent trees completely specialised to their own talents (look at Purifiers, the only useful things from there for anyone not a pure purifier are the Blessings, and they only effect the purifier and only one can be up at a time) or completely overlap with other talent trees and having both of them would be useless.

    It means that specialised characters will be unwanted since it seems to be fairly easy to have a character that is a Master of All Trades. There are some major synergies (I mean, I couldn't imagine a healing character without Warden from what it's current state is, THAT is a class that synergises with EVERYTHING) but there's either too much overlap between abilities or far too little.

    Does this worry anyone else?

    To sum up my concerns:-
    • Too much overlap between certain classes in terms of abilities (useable skills) means that there's no point in having more than one soul.
    • Too little synergy in terms of ability boosts (passive skills) means it's useless to pick up certain classes and better to just have a much more well rounded character who has no major flaws.
    • These both lead to boring "Master/Jack of All Trades" characters that are capable of doing everything to a degree.
    When I think about synergy, I think about trees combining to do a particular thing better than one tree alone. Like if your goal is to nuke mobs, you start with Pyromancer and strip away all the PVP talents and replace them with PVE talents from another tree. I think that you're talking about synergy in a cooperative sense. As in that no other trees have heals over time, so the Warden is synergistic with everything. I, on the other hand, would say that the Warden is synergistic with nothing for the same reason.

    Personally, I think there's too little synergy between trees. For example, look at these Warden talents.
    • Aquatic Affinity: Increases the healing of all water based abilities by (2/4/6/8/10)%.
    • Fluidity: Increases the healing of all heal over time effects by (2/4/6/8/10)%
    • Surging Rapids: Increases the chance of getting a critical hit with water based abilities by (1/2/3)%

    These talents currently help nobody but a Warden (Purifier = fire, Sentinel = life, nobody else has heals over time). I see talents like those, coupled with strong root talents and think why would I ever not just put 51 points into Warden?

    Or, when there is overlap, it is only in a few obvious directions. For a Shaman, the splash into Justicar is so obvious that it seems necessary. A Pyromancer can splash into the generic talents of an Elementalist or a Warlock, but those two can't splash into the fire specific talents of the Pyromancer. Etc etc.

    I'm not actually worried about people being a Jack of All Trades because I don't think that's very desireable. My worry is that min/max builds become so obvious that there's really no choice. My idea would be to get rid of specific elemental buffing talents (no +water) and replace them all with generic buffing talents (+crit, +haste), and then to scatter unique abilities at the 11, 21, 31, 41 and 51 point levels of the trees (or 6, 16, 26, 36, 46 might even be better). In the Warden's case, they'd be abilities like
    • Glassy Reflection: The next spell cast at the Cleric within 3 seconds will be reflected back against the attacker.
    • Curative Waters: Removes all disease, Poisons and Curses from the selected ally. Cooldown: 45 seconds
    • Orbs of the Stream: Surrounds the selected ally with 3 orbs, when they take damage one orb explodes to heal them for 167 to 167 Health.
    • Cascade: The Cleric gains 100 Mana per second for 10 seconds.
    • Downpour: The Cleric channels energy into a downpour of soothing rain, healing the party for 359 Health every second for 8 seconds. Cooldown: 1 minute

    Some trees would still have emphasis on different aspects like melee damage, spell damage, or healing, but making the choice between all those different abilities they could get would be much more difficult than I see it to be now.

  5. #5
    Rift Disciple Autarch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    132

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by forestwhitakereye View Post
    When I think about synergy, I think about trees combining to do a particular thing better than one tree alone. Like if your goal is to nuke mobs, you start with Pyromancer and strip away all the PVP talents and replace them with PVE talents from another tree. I think that you're talking about synergy in a cooperative sense. As in that no other trees have heals over time, so the Warden is synergistic with everything. I, on the other hand, would say that the Warden is synergistic with nothing for the same reason.

    Personally, I think there's too little synergy between trees. For example, look at these Warden talents.
    • Aquatic Affinity: Increases the healing of all water based abilities by (2/4/6/8/10)%.
    • Fluidity: Increases the healing of all heal over time effects by (2/4/6/8/10)%
    • Surging Rapids: Increases the chance of getting a critical hit with water based abilities by (1/2/3)%

    These talents currently help nobody but a Warden (Purifier = fire, Sentinel = life, nobody else has heals over time). I see talents like those, coupled with strong root talents and think why would I ever not just put 51 points into Warden?
    Actually, I was thinking a crit-based purifier/warden (warden/sentinel, otherwise) build would work best. It depends on whetther or not HoTs can crit, really, which is something we still need to find out. If they do, it basically means that any time you crit on a heal people get massive boosts in terms of healing / damage reduction.

    Quote Originally Posted by forestwhitakereye View Post
    Or, when there is overlap, it is only in a few obvious directions. For a Shaman, the splash into Justicar is so obvious that it seems necessary. A Pyromancer can splash into the generic talents of an Elementalist or a Warlock, but those two can't splash into the fire specific talents of the Pyromancer. Etc etc.

    I'm not actually worried about people being a Jack of All Trades because I don't think that's very desireable. My worry is that min/max builds become so obvious that there's really no choice. My idea would be to get rid of specific elemental buffing talents (no +water) and replace them all with generic buffing talents (+crit, +haste), and then to scatter unique abilities at the 11, 21, 31, 41 and 51 point levels of the trees (or 6, 16, 26, 36, 46 might even be better). In the Warden's case, they'd be abilities like
    • Glassy Reflection: The next spell cast at the Cleric within 3 seconds will be reflected back against the attacker.
    • Curative Waters: Removes all disease, Poisons and Curses from the selected ally. Cooldown: 45 seconds
    • Orbs of the Stream: Surrounds the selected ally with 3 orbs, when they take damage one orb explodes to heal them for 167 to 167 Health.
    • Cascade: The Cleric gains 100 Mana per second for 10 seconds.
    • Downpour: The Cleric channels energy into a downpour of soothing rain, healing the party for 359 Health every second for 8 seconds. Cooldown: 1 minute

    Some trees would still have emphasis on different aspects like melee damage, spell damage, or healing, but making the choice between all those different abilities they could get would be much more difficult than I see it to be now.
    This is essentially what I meant as a replacement.

    I'd've suggested all that, but I was a bit worried that it'd make it essential to get these talents (110%*120%*Base Score is amazing, as an example) if the mechanics don't shape up well.

    Now, if each tree had a specific talented bonuses that they could contribute (warden gives extra mana regeneration, purifiers give extra crit, sentinels give extra wisdom or something) that might work since it wouldn't require constant cross-soul balance.

    Quote Originally Posted by luci View Post
    I'm not saying that you're wrong or that you're right, however I do want to point out that the data on classes that people got from the conventions may or may not be completely different from what is being seen in the alpha( they said that it was an older version of the game at pax) and is it safe to assume that you were looking at the role builder site where you can look at how the souls work together?
    I understand, I just feel like it's necessary to aerate this now before it could actually become a problem.

  6. #6
    General of Telara luci's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    PA
    Posts
    768

    Default

    ok so lets look at clerics, both have different types of mana and wisdom buffs as they will be likely important. I do see some great potential for them to be mixed as sentinels have strong single target heals and wardens have aoe heals. I feel that if the healing cleric souls all buffed each other from using the same magic energy(life and life) they would end up making something likely over powered. I don't feel that you will be able to build a "jack of all trades" (my opinion), even if you get all of the awesome warden talents you'll be good for a specific purpose, besides that you'll be lacking.

    A few weeks ago exclusive, myself and cyrcle all worked on builds for the cleric so I do believe they(the souls synergy) will due just fine.

    here's a link to the thread with all of the builds thread on specs
    Last edited by luci; 10-06-2010 at 07:22 AM.

    Computer: Massive sexy beast that rocks your socks off

  7. #7
    Plane Walker Gorezin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    324

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by forestwhitakereye View Post
    I'm not actually worried about people being a Jack of All Trades because I don't think that's very desireable. My worry is that min/max builds become so obvious that there's really no choice. .
    Your whole post was great, but this sentence was spot on and my biggest worry also.

  8. #8
    Sword of Telara CyclopsSlayer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Minneapolis, MN USA
    Posts
    794

    Default

    @forestwhitakereye & @Autarch

    I agree heartily with both your comments! Just look at the number of Shaman/Justicar builds on various sites. Some add a bit of Warden, some not. But the Shm/Just synergy is so obvious it is hard to miss and very likely a FOTM build.

    When the final 17 souls come into full release we might see synergy changes, and there is Beta tweaks to await, but just from the Cleric class concepts we can see the rarity or preponderance of the various elements usage in these Souls. Hmm, maybe time to do a chart of which element/ability/stat each soul buffs.

  9. #9
    Rift Disciple Zyllos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    137

    Default

    The top several posts gives a pretty good picture of what could be going wrong with the different combination of souls. Of course, the paticular example might be one of those combinations they mentioned that will not work. Now I completely understand that it would seem odd to have ways to build that do not provide any meanful benefit to the player but to allow developers the complete freedom to create anything they want and not worry about failed soul combinations allows for greater diversity. Unless those group of abilities always leads to poor performance except in one situation, allowing unsynergestic combinations allows diveristy.

    Of course, there is still always alpha and beta testing to be done.

  10. #10
    Shadowlander
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Autarch View Post
    Actually, I was thinking a crit-based purifier/warden (warden/sentinel, otherwise) build would work best. It depends on whetther or not HoTs can crit, really, which is something we still need to find out. If they do, it basically means that any time you crit on a heal people get massive boosts in terms of healing / damage reduction.
    The existence of Surging Rapids (and some other Warden talents) makes it very likely that HoTs can crit, since all Warden heals are HoTs to some degree. The talent would be pretty useless if it didn't affect the only abilities it could affect.

    Which is the other point. Note that all these Warden talents specifically mention water-based abilities. That means they only affect Warden spells, and (conversely) that Warden spells are unaffected by many non-Warden talents. That's the lack of synergy that I believe FWE is talking about. You can add some Inquisitor talents to a primarily Sentinel build to get a crit-heavy healer, for instance, since those both use life-based abilities, but Warden abilities are orphaned.

    Hopefully that's one of the things they're really going to be focusing on during the beta - tracking which souls get lots of use and which ones get ignored, and then tweaking the unpopular ones to give people a reason to add them to mixed builds.

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    91

    Default

    never mind
    Last edited by LazerApe; 10-09-2010 at 03:42 AM. Reason: got my question anwsered.

  12. #12
    Rift Disciple
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    107

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Talbott View Post
    The existence of Surging Rapids (and some other Warden talents) makes it very likely that HoTs can crit, since all Warden heals are HoTs to some degree. The talent would be pretty useless if it didn't affect the only abilities it could affect.

    Which is the other point. Note that all these Warden talents specifically mention water-based abilities. That means they only affect Warden spells, and (conversely) that Warden spells are unaffected by many non-Warden talents. That's the lack of synergy that I believe FWE is talking about. You can add some Inquisitor talents to a primarily Sentinel build to get a crit-heavy healer, for instance, since those both use life-based abilities, but Warden abilities are orphaned.

    Hopefully that's one of the things they're really going to be focusing on during the beta - tracking which souls get lots of use and which ones get ignored, and then tweaking the unpopular ones to give people a reason to add them to mixed builds.
    One thing i wonder is if abilities like Light Efficiency from sentinel , will even work with life abilities from Inquisitor. Also skills like Ebb and Flow from warden that give a bonus when casting a healing spell. Will it work with any heal spell or is it going to be only for heals in that soul tree?

    It seems everyone is assuming these things will work with skills in other trees but i think it is possible that some wont.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple forestwhitakereye's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozzio View Post
    One thing i wonder is if abilities like Light Efficiency from sentinel , will even work with life abilities from Inquisitor. Also skills like Ebb and Flow from warden that give a bonus when casting a healing spell. Will it work with any heal spell or is it going to be only for heals in that soul tree?

    It seems everyone is assuming these things will work with skills in other trees but i think it is possible that some wont.
    I think it's safe to assume that talents like Light Efficiency and Ebb and Flow affect talents in other trees. If they didn't want Ebb and Flow to affect other trees they could have made it say "water" like the other Warden abilities. If they wanted the Sentinel abilities to stay within tree, they could have made Sentinel purely life and Inquisitor purely death or made Light Efficiency say "reduces the cost of Sentinel abilities" or something.

  14. #14
    Ascendant Oggiefishier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    2,244

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Autarch View Post
    Flicking through the talent trees, I've noticed that there's either too little or too much class overlap between the various souls. Some of them don't work together at all or they run over each other's abilities far too much. This worries me a little bit because it could have disastrous results when we get into game.

    What I mean is that classes either have talent trees completely specialised to their own talents (look at Purifiers, the only useful things from there for anyone not a pure purifier are the Blessings, and they only effect the purifier and only one can be up at a time) or completely overlap with other talent trees and having both of them would be useless.

    It means that specialised characters will be unwanted since it seems to be fairly easy to have a character that is a Master of All Trades. There are some major synergies (I mean, I couldn't imagine a healing character without Warden from what it's current state is, THAT is a class that synergises with EVERYTHING) but there's either too much overlap between abilities or far too little.

    Does this worry anyone else?

    To sum up my concerns:-
    • Too much overlap between certain classes in terms of abilities (useable skills) means that there's no point in having more than one soul.
    • Too little synergy in terms of ability boosts (passive skills) means it's useless to pick up certain classes and better to just have a much more well rounded character who has no major flaws.
    • These both lead to boring "Master/Jack of All Trades" characters that are capable of doing everything to a degree.
    noticed some of this on the rolebuilder.. take a look at the reserections .. ran one build where i had 2 ooc reses and 1 combat res.. a bit of overlap there.
    And Shepard's we shall be for thee my lord for thee, power hath descendant forth from thy hand, may our feet swiftly carry on thy command, so we shall flow a river forth to thee, and teeming with souls shall it ever be

    In nomeni Patri et Filii et Spiritus Sancti.

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts