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Thread: Mage versus Cleric, the Pros and Cons

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    Champion TadaceAce's Avatar
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    Default Mage versus Cleric, the Pros and Cons

    I wanted to share my opinion of mage versus cleric in different aspects of the game. Perhaps people agree with it perhaps not. I hope that some newer people read this and will be happier with their class.

    Healing:

    Raid Tank Healing: Adv. Mage. Chloro generally is more reliable has greater throughput. Puri was a step in the right direction and is both competitive to cleric and necessary for some fights that require total purge (cauterize).

    Raid AE Healing Adv. Cleric. Often raid healing is done by a mix of Chloros and Wardens for complicated reasons. But generally, the wardens will put up higher HPS and have higher burst. In the world of AE healing those are the two most important thing.

    Dungeon Healing Draw. Healing dungeons is incredibly different between chloro and sent. They both shine on different encounters. Generally chloro produces better ST heals, while sent has more flexibility for AE heals. When running pugs, I find Sent to be more forgiving in covering others mistakes.

    PVP Healing Adv. Cleric. This one isn't really close in my book. PVP is based around ST healing and Synth swapping is just not viable in pvp making chloro essentially a warden without the burst which is far from an optimal healing spec in pvp.


    Tanking:

    I suppose I'll include it. Obviously Adv. Cleric as mage can't currently tank.


    Support:

    Adv. Mage. The only souls that can even be considered support for cleric is defiler and druid. Defiler is being quickly replaced in its role by necro (mage) links and druid is more of a soloing spec that lacks compared to similar roles in other callings. On the other hand. Mages have archon and archon hybrids. Archon brings to the table raid wide dps increases making it a common and powerful support build.


    Damage:

    Slight Adv. Mage This one is complicated. The main downfall of cleric is that is is more or less a one trick pony.

    Cleric comes with 2 viable DPS specs, 1 ranged in Inquisitor and 1 melee in Shaman. Shaman is a great spec but the sheer fact of being melee is already a huge limitation in a lot of fights. Inquisitor suffers from a few issues:
    1. It lacks decent AE damage. This is important in some fights and trash.
    2. Target swapping is a huge dps loss. So much dps is reliant on dots that the ramp up is very slow. This is important on fights where you have a limited time to take down an add such as the cannons on crucia.
    3. While semimobile, being mobile is a relatively large dps loss.

    Mage, however, comes with 4 viable dps specs all of which bring something different to the table and can avoid the concerns outlined above for Inquis.

    By all means, the raw dps between cleric and mage souls are very similar. The advantage mage is a result of its diversity and ability to better handle different situations.



    Overall the balance between the classes is incredibly well done and I commend Trion on a job well done.

  2. #2
    Champion of Telara Nnnxia's Avatar
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    mage has 3 viable dps specs, 2 if you do not count support.

    ranged - pyro
    melee - harbinger
    support/dps - pyrochon

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    Champion TadaceAce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nnnxia View Post
    mage has 3 viable dps specs, 2 if you do not count support.

    ranged - pyro
    melee - harbinger
    support/dps - pyrochon
    Last time i checked necro and ele both outdps pyro now..

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    What mages and clerics do you play with?

    Just to expand on what Nnxia said, at lower gear levels pyro gets outdpsed by necro, I have no idea how you're managing to outdps a pyro as an ele other then you're completely ****ing over your rotation or something.
    Last edited by TheWeirdOne; 11-12-2013 at 10:44 AM.
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    RIFT Guide Writer Redcruxs's Avatar
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    I agree with most of it, however to simplify things i'd say these are the breakdowns:

    Healing - advantage mage, they are much more versitile, able to swap between tank and AoE healing on the fly, buff the groups DPS by a large margin, and are just plain easier to heal with (heal through dps FTW).

    Tanking - cleric duh but will remain to be seen in 3.0

    Support - advantage mage, by FAR, not only because cleric doesn't have a true support soul but because mages support souls do as much or more DPS than their pure DPS specs (depending on the situation). this massive flexibility and ease of use is what makes archons far superior to a support like BM in every way (despite having similar buffs). I suspect mages will be superior to clerics support in 3.0.

    DPS - i'm gonna call this a tie, mages have more variety of DPS specs but clerics do slightly more DPS given equal gear and skill and cleric dps is simpler without needing to manage charge.

    overall both are balanced, but if you want to support your group and heal, mage is the right choice. Cleric only comes out ahead if you're just interested in tanking and DPS'ing.

  6. #6
    Plane Touched takadox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    Support:

    Adv. Mage. The only souls that can even be considered support for cleric is defiler and druid. Defiler is being quickly replaced in its role by necro (mage) links and druid is more of a soloing spec that lacks compared to similar roles in other callings. On the other hand. Mages have archon and archon hybrids. Archon brings to the table raid wide dps increases making it a common and powerful support build.
    Mostly I agree, though I don't how you can think Defiler is being replaced by Necro. Necro has one 30% link and does decent (not great) DPS. Defiler has 4 links and does both DPS and Healing with roughly similar numbers to a Bard. While Necro links are definitely useful (if you are short on Clerics or are doing farm bosses where you don't need extra heals), they are not "quickly replacing" Defilers.

    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    Cleric comes with 2 viable DPS specs, 1 ranged in Inquisitor and 1 melee in Shaman. Shaman is a great spec but the sheer fact of being melee is already a huge limitation in a lot of fights.

    ...

    Mage, however, comes with 4 viable dps specs all of which bring something different to the table and can avoid the concerns outlined above for Inquis.
    Why do so many people still think that melee is a huge disadvantage? There is no actual disadvantage for being in melee aside from having to deal with more mechanics. If you are an even halfway decent player (you don't even need to be a great player) then there is nothing wrong with being in melee. Honestly the only real fight where you need to limit your melee is Kyzan. Everything else can be done in melee just fine.

    Also as mentioned above, Mages do not have 4 viable DPS specs, we have 2. Harbinger and Pyromancer. For Support we have Harbchon and Pyrochon (Harbchon being significantly better than Pyrochon).

    In addition, Pyromancer suffers from many of the same limitations as Inquisitor:
    1. While Pyro AoE did recently get buffed, using it will still completely kill our DPS.
    2. Due to needing 5 stacks of the Combust DoT to fuel our hard hitting Countdown and Fusillade (Prime has a fairly lengthy CD), as well as needing to recast Life Leech, Pyros also have serious problems with target swapping.
    3. Pyro has more hard casted abilities than Inquisitor does and is roughly on the same level of mobility as Inquisitor.
    Seriously, have you ever actually played a Mage before?

    Quote Originally Posted by TadaceAce View Post
    Last time i checked necro and ele both outdps pyro now..
    That made me laugh. Maybe you should do your homework before posting a comparison between classes next time. Necro only has an advantage over Pyro when there are constant adds that need to be killed, so it's pretty much only effective on Matriarch (and even then, Harbinger is better for Matriarch). There is no real reason to bring a Necro to any raid unless you need the AoE due to lack of Sabs/Champs or need the link due to lack of Clerics.

    And Ele? Please...Ele has never been even remotely viable in any SL raid, ever. Just mentioning it in a post like this is an insult to Mages.

  7. #7
    RIFT Guide Writer TheGrinnz's Avatar
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    Mage vs Cleric healing is always going to be opinion and in most cases the answer is to use some of each, depending on what the specific players are best at. My opinion is that cleric healing specs are more useful but chloromancer is also needed and useful. The real important differences are:

    Chloro: can switch between ST and AoE
    Cleric: needs to choose a spec with a certain specialization

    Chloro: can only heal reactively; if tank gets hit for more than their HP there is nothing you can do
    Cleric: proactive and preventative healing methods such as links, foul growths, puri shielding and mitigation, and healer's covenant

    Chloro: wild growth!!!!
    Cleric: uhh flames of life?

    Chloro: requires a GCD to switch tank heals, but temporary 2 tank healing with symbiosis
    Cleric: can freely heal 3 tanks at once in either purifier or sentinel

    Chloro: Flourish, saved up nature's touch, ruin
    Cleric: monsoon, downpour, healing effusion, pool of restoration, wave of renewal, flames of life

    (and usually doesn't matter: )
    Chloro: only one tank healer on a tank
    Cleric: puri, defiler, and unlimited sentinels on a tank
    Last edited by TheGrinnz; 11-12-2013 at 11:39 AM.

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    What this actually boils down to is how much damage occurs in x seconds, a 'relatively small amount of time.' For example, most T2 fights are tuned around chloromancers; that is, their damage contribution is higher as a healer and they can contend with the damage which is usually filler in nature.

    For raid healing this includes Eggtenders, Proteus, Thrax, Inyr'kta, Breaker X-1, Grim Brothers, Volan. Volan obviously includes cooldowns and burst healing by your wardens or puri depending on your personalized composition, but there are plenty of residual damage phases where Wardens are recovering mana, or in the platform phase the chloros can heal up the shielding matrices.

    For tank healing......well, there's not really any fight I would recommend an LBV chloro. LGV offers some excellent hps on any active tanks along with the raid, and for any fight with actual intensive tank-healing, you are generally better off with a purifier or some other combo for cleric cooldowns (like Inyr'kta, or Proteus).

    Basically, what you should grasp from this is that an optimal setup uses LGV chloros first, and then adds clerics where absolutely necessary. What you'll realize is that most fights can be done with just a few healers as well, particularly once you're stacking competent LGV chloros.

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