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Thread: 31/20 Pyro/Ele

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    Ascendant Europe's Avatar
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    Default 31/20 Pyro/Ele

    31/20 Pyromancer/Elementalist is just a LITTLE overpowered.

    Let's recount, shall we?

    Elementalist gives us:
    5% crit (T1)
    10% less damage taken (T2)
    10% more elemental damage taken debuff (Exposure+Improved Exposure, T3)
    40% more critical hit damage bonus (T3, 4/5 points)

    Pyromancer gives us:
    20% cast haste (T1)
    15% to Internalize (T2) [Internalize is the 50% damage toggled charge-dump buff. Thus, 65%]
    10% more fire damage done on flame bolt cast for 10 sec (T4)
    8% more fire damage done (T4)
    10% chance to proc an instant cast cinder bolt (T5)
    10% chance on fireball cast to proc 3 no CD flame bolts (T5)
    5% more damage done (T6)
    50% cast haste buff(T6)

    Taking into account ONLY the straight up +damage effects and Internalize:

    We do 100 dps. Now, we've got these +damage effects. 10 from exposure, 10 from the flame bolt debuff, 8 from burning bright, 5% from improved ground of power (note: I don't know the % increase of the original ground of power, so this estimate is lower than what we'll see ingame). 10+10+8+5=33.

    So now we're doing 100*1.33 DPS. 133. Now we've got ourselves a full charge bar, so we toggle Internalize. That's 133*1.65, or 219 dps. and that's ignoring the two procs, the the dot effect from fireball that stacks three times and the 31 point ability, which resets all cooldowns and grants 50% cast haste.

    Whoa. I haven't played the game, but that sounds pretty overpowered to me. Lots of raw numbers being throw around.
    <a href=http://www.trinityguild.org target=_blank>http://www.trinityguild.org/images/signatures/rift/sig_final.png</a>
    I mean, I guess it would just be a guy who you know, grabs bananas and runs. Or, um, a banana that grabs things. I donít know.
    Why would a banana grab another banana? I mean, those are the kind of questions I donít want to answer.

  2. #2
    Sword of Telara souper's Avatar
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    Yeah, that's one of those scary builds that they need to be mindful of. It has good defenses + a pet on top of all that raw damage. Would rock in PvP and could easily become the defacto damage dealing build depending on how aggro works in the game. Better stock up on that fire resist!

  3. #3
    Rift Master armengar's Avatar
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    probably will be op, but i'd wager it gets some balance in beta

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    Rift Disciple forestwhitakereye's Avatar
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    First, it seems like you're missing a bunch of talents from the Pyromancer tree, especially in the jump from T2 to T4.

    Second, I'd be interested in hearing what your expected DPS rotation would be. Is it Fireballs until they proc the Firebolt with no CD and the Cinderburst with no CD?

    Third, I really don't think this tree is finalized because assuming you're not casting a Cinder Burst unless it's instant, Fireball is the only spell you have that is actually affected by your haste talents. There is a Global Cooldown in the game, (and if it's like WoW, it's 1.5 seconds), then nothing else is going to be affected, unless Living Flame affects the GCD (possibly, who knows). Likewise the Elementalist crit talent is called Biting Cold, so it's entirely possible it was meant to be air damage only.

    With Exposure and Ground of Power at 1.5 seconds apiece (GCD) with a 30 second duration apiece, they effectively reduce your DPS by 10% due to refreshing them.

    Also, you start off talking about how you're at 100 DPS and how that jumps to 219. Fireball, presumably your bread and butter spell, as written is pretty awful, with an inherent DPS of 5 (15/3 seconds), bumped to 6.25 with the haste buff in T1. Fire Bolt isn't much better at 14DPS (21/1.5). I don't know how spell damage on gear is calculated in this game, but it seems you'd have to have an awful lot of it to bump to 100dps before taking into account your other talents.

    Considering the lack of synergy between classes everywhere else in the known talent trees, I'd say this could end up being overpowered just because these two classes do seem to get along so well. But I'm gonna wait and see how the Beta turns out before jumping to conclusions.

    edit: I have a mental block against remembering that other ranks of spells exist. If there are 5 ranks of Fireball or so, the numbers do look a lot nicer.
    Last edited by forestwhitakereye; 09-22-2010 at 04:30 PM.

  5. #5
    Telaran Mirarii's Avatar
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    Personally I'm just going to play a build I find fun, I really don't care about having the best build out there.

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    Rift Disciple Narshima's Avatar
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    Was playing around with the stuff today and that is close to the build I came up with. It will be hard to tell how important spells and ablities are till you start playing so it is hard to tell if it is worth spending points in somethings.

  7. #7
    Ascendant Europe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by forestwhitakereye View Post
    First, it seems like you're missing a bunch of talents from the Pyromancer tree, especially in the jump from T2 to T4.

    Second, I'd be interested in hearing what your expected DPS rotation would be. Is it Fireballs until they proc the Firebolt with no CD and the Cinderburst with no CD?

    Third, I really don't think this tree is finalized because assuming you're not casting a Cinder Burst unless it's instant, Fireball is the only spell you have that is actually affected by your haste talents. There is a Global Cooldown in the game, (and if it's like WoW, it's 1.5 seconds), then nothing else is going to be affected, unless Living Flame affects the GCD (possibly, who knows). Likewise the Elementalist crit talent is called Biting Cold, so it's entirely possible it was meant to be air damage only.

    With Exposure and Ground of Power at 1.5 seconds apiece (GCD) with a 30 second duration apiece, they effectively reduce your DPS by 10% due to refreshing them.

    Also, you start off talking about how you're at 100 DPS and how that jumps to 219. Fireball, presumably your bread and butter spell, as written is pretty awful, with an inherent DPS of 5 (15/3 seconds), bumped to 6.25 with the haste buff in T1. Fire Bolt isn't much better at 14DPS (21/1.5). I don't know how spell damage on gear is calculated in this game, but it seems you'd have to have an awful lot of it to bump to 100dps before taking into account your other talents.

    Considering the lack of synergy between classes everywhere else in the known talent trees, I'd say this could end up being overpowered just because these two classes do seem to get along so well. But I'm gonna wait and see how the Beta turns out before jumping to conclusions.

    edit: I have a mental block against remembering that other ranks of spells exist. If there are 5 ranks of Fireball or so, the numbers do look a lot nicer.
    T3 is very...lacking in PVE uility. That's what this is meant to be. Specifically, a single-target PVE DPS build. I haven't worked out a rotation yet. It's pretty tough to do that without stuff like spell coefficients. Obviously, there seems to be a lot of fireball spam-> procs going on.

    Just eyeballing it, it seems to be a priority system rather than a true rotation. Countdown > Flame Bolt > Fireball with Cinderbursts on proc.

    You're absolutely correct about the 20% haste talent, though. It seems pretty lacking now that I think about it. Any sort of casting haste stat would be pretty much useless for the pyromancer as well.

    edit: and let's not forget IGNITE, from the elementalist side: Lights the target aflame, inflicting 10 Fire damage instantly and an additional 19 Fire damage over 10 seconds (+9 Charge) . I think once you've got your 3 stack of rolling fireball dots, you use a GCD and pop that sucker out and go back to your rotation, trying to keep up all 4 dots.
    Last edited by Europe; 09-22-2010 at 05:24 PM.
    <a href=http://www.trinityguild.org target=_blank>http://www.trinityguild.org/images/signatures/rift/sig_final.png</a>
    I mean, I guess it would just be a guy who you know, grabs bananas and runs. Or, um, a banana that grabs things. I donít know.
    Why would a banana grab another banana? I mean, those are the kind of questions I donít want to answer.

  8. #8
    Champion of Telara Nightbringer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europe View Post
    31/20 Pyromancer/Elementalist is just a LITTLE overpowered.

    Let's recount, shall we?

    Elementalist gives us:
    5% crit (T1)
    10% less damage taken (T2)
    10% more elemental damage taken debuff (Exposure+Improved Exposure, T3)
    40% more critical hit damage bonus (T3, 4/5 points)

    Pyromancer gives us:
    20% cast haste (T1)
    15% to Internalize (T2) [Internalize is the 50% damage toggled charge-dump buff. Thus, 65%]
    10% more fire damage done on flame bolt cast for 10 sec (T4)
    8% more fire damage done (T4)
    10% chance to proc an instant cast cinder bolt (T5)
    10% chance on fireball cast to proc 3 no CD flame bolts (T5)
    5% more damage done (T6)
    50% cast haste buff(T6)

    Taking into account ONLY the straight up +damage effects and Internalize:

    We do 100 dps. Now, we've got these +damage effects. 10 from exposure, 10 from the flame bolt debuff, 8 from burning bright, 5% from improved ground of power (note: I don't know the % increase of the original ground of power, so this estimate is lower than what we'll see ingame). 10+10+8+5=33.

    So now we're doing 100*1.33 DPS. 133. Now we've got ourselves a full charge bar, so we toggle Internalize. That's 133*1.65, or 219 dps. and that's ignoring the two procs, the the dot effect from fireball that stacks three times and the 31 point ability, which resets all cooldowns and grants 50% cast haste.

    Whoa. I haven't played the game, but that sounds pretty overpowered to me. Lots of raw numbers being throw around.
    By only going 31 points into Elementalist, you are trading the 5% pyromancer damage buff for the 10% damage buff the elementalist get from elemental armor and forgoing the 5% / second mana regen from channel elements.

    20 points in pyromancer may give more burst dps, but a 38 / 13 build in going to be indefinitely sustainable.

  9. #9
    Ascendant Europe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbringer View Post
    By only going 31 points into Elementalist, you are trading the 5% pyromancer damage buff for the 10% damage buff the elementalist get from elemental armor and forgoing the 5% / second mana regen from channel elements.

    20 points in pyromancer may give more burst dps, but a 38 / 13 build in going to be indefinitely sustainable.
    If you ask me, 38/13 ends up being a pretty anemic build. The strength of the pyromancer tree right now is the raw damage boosts you get. The 13 points in pyro ends up being only enough to get cinder burst, which is useless without its proc. The only playstyle you end up co-opting from pyro would be ground of power, perhaps countdown and flame bolt. Fireball or something like crystalline missiles would likely be a wash.

    Obviously, elementalist relies a lot on the pet for DPS, so that's an unknown. but I still prefer the absolutely wealth of toys that the pyromancer gets.
    <a href=http://www.trinityguild.org target=_blank>http://www.trinityguild.org/images/signatures/rift/sig_final.png</a>
    I mean, I guess it would just be a guy who you know, grabs bananas and runs. Or, um, a banana that grabs things. I donít know.
    Why would a banana grab another banana? I mean, those are the kind of questions I donít want to answer.

  10. #10
    Shield of Telara Krassus's Avatar
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    Oh Europe you little vixen

  11. #11
    Rift Disciple forestwhitakereye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europe View Post
    If you ask me, 38/13 ends up being a pretty anemic build. The strength of the pyromancer tree right now is the raw damage boosts you get. The 13 points in pyro ends up being only enough to get cinder burst, which is useless without its proc. The only playstyle you end up co-opting from pyro would be ground of power, perhaps countdown and flame bolt. Fireball or something like crystalline missiles would likely be a wash.

    Obviously, elementalist relies a lot on the pet for DPS, so that's an unknown. but I still prefer the absolutely wealth of toys that the pyromancer gets.
    I agree that Pyromancer seems pretty self contained, it doesn't have much in the way of those generic buffing talents that give you a reason to splash into Elementalist.

    Warlock on the other hand has some.

    Magical Affinity (T1) Increases the Charge your spells generate by 5% (10/15/20/25%?)
    Opportunity (T2) You have a 2% chance to have the cast time for your next spell reduced by 100%. (4/6/8/10%?)
    Not much in remaining in T1,T2 or T3 to buff your Elementalist stuff, but
    Potency (T4) Increases the Critical Hit chance of your spells by 1%. (2/3/4/5%?)
    Dark Power (T5) Increases your spell damage by 2%. (4/6/8/10%?)

    Improved Warlock Armor is pretty good also, but then you're 28 points into the tree and it's your main.

    It's especially hard to get a feel since we don't really understand how Charge works.

  12. #12
    Rift Chaser Scythras's Avatar
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    Every build seems overpowered when you look at it in this game, so keep this in mind: there are still 6 other souls in that calling to mix and match with, many of which we have no idea of their abilities. Who's to say Storm Caller wont match even better with Elementalist? Also, sure, damage and such looks good on paper, but we have no idea how much health mobs or other players will have, and we have no idea the amount of mitigation there will be in the game, on gear or in skills for a lot of the unknown classes, or the impact stats have on mitigation. As it stands, you can mix any soul with any other and they all seem overpowered at this point, and when every class is overpowered, that puts them all on an even playing field, which makes them all, in fact, balanced.

  13. #13
    Rift Disciple forestwhitakereye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scythras View Post
    Every build seems overpowered when you look at it in this game, so keep this in mind: there are still 6 other souls in that calling to mix and match with, many of which we have no idea of their abilities. Who's to say Storm Caller wont match even better with Elementalist? Also, sure, damage and such looks good on paper, but we have no idea how much health mobs or other players will have, and we have no idea the amount of mitigation there will be in the game, on gear or in skills for a lot of the unknown classes, or the impact stats have on mitigation. As it stands, you can mix any soul with any other and they all seem overpowered at this point, and when every class is overpowered, that puts them all on an even playing field, which makes them all, in fact, balanced.
    Accidently double posted, but while I'm here I'll just say I agree.
    Last edited by forestwhitakereye; 09-23-2010 at 06:47 AM.

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    Champion Geekcheck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Europe View Post
    31/20 Pyromancer/Elementalist is just a LITTLE overpowered.

    Let's recount, shall we?

    Elementalist gives us:
    5% crit (T1)
    10% less damage taken (T2)
    10% more elemental damage taken debuff (Exposure+Improved Exposure, T3)
    40% more critical hit damage bonus (T3, 4/5 points)

    Pyromancer gives us:
    20% cast haste (T1)
    15% to Internalize (T2) [Internalize is the 50% damage toggled charge-dump buff. Thus, 65%]
    10% more fire damage done on flame bolt cast for 10 sec (T4)
    8% more fire damage done (T4)
    10% chance to proc an instant cast cinder bolt (T5)
    10% chance on fireball cast to proc 3 no CD flame bolts (T5)
    5% more damage done (T6)
    50% cast haste buff(T6)

    Taking into account ONLY the straight up +damage effects and Internalize:

    We do 100 dps. Now, we've got these +damage effects. 10 from exposure, 10 from the flame bolt debuff, 8 from burning bright, 5% from improved ground of power (note: I don't know the % increase of the original ground of power, so this estimate is lower than what we'll see ingame). 10+10+8+5=33.

    So now we're doing 100*1.33 DPS. 133. Now we've got ourselves a full charge bar, so we toggle Internalize. That's 133*1.65, or 219 dps. and that's ignoring the two procs, the the dot effect from fireball that stacks three times and the 31 point ability, which resets all cooldowns and grants 50% cast haste.

    Whoa. I haven't played the game, but that sounds pretty overpowered to me. Lots of raw numbers being throw around.
    Quote Originally Posted by souper View Post
    Yeah, that's one of those scary builds that they need to be mindful of. It has good defenses + a pet on top of all that raw damage. Would rock in PvP and could easily become the defacto damage dealing build depending on how aggro works in the game. Better stock up on that fire resist!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nightbringer View Post
    By only going 31 points into Elementalist, you are trading the 5% pyromancer damage buff for the 10% damage buff the elementalist get from elemental armor and forgoing the 5% / second mana regen from channel elements.

    20 points in pyromancer may give more burst dps, but a 38 / 13 build in going to be indefinitely sustainable.
    I think it is a little too early to construct any rational assessment of builds when no one has even played the game yet. And by the time people do, many of the skills and their placement are bound to change. Calling something overpowered in an Alpha state is not only premature, but fodder for knee-jerk reactions and flame wars.

    Once the game is playable by others in a Beta, is when we can start breaking down what is and what isn't viable.

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    Plane Walker Zephirius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geekcheck View Post
    I think it is a little too early to construct any rational assessment of builds when no one has even played the game yet. And by the time people do, many of the skills and their placement are bound to change. Calling something overpowered in an Alpha state is not only premature, but fodder for knee-jerk reactions and flame wars.

    Once the game is playable by others in a Beta, is when we can start breaking down what is and what isn't viable.

    I could not have said it better. I was just reading all the posts above and was like "Are you kidding me??" LOL. Only a select group of people have even had a chance to play the game and even that was pretty darn limited. Reading all you guys' posts about how to spec made it seem like the game has been out for a while.


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