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Thread: DoT/ HoT stacking.

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    Prophet of Telara Mercury's Avatar
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    Default DoT/ HoT stacking.

    DoTs need to stack, there is no way around it. With the availability of DoT types of attacks in the callings, not having such attacks stack will kill a lot of diversity, because people spec according to what is useful. Have anyone at PAX/GC made a note of this?

    In a few games I played most DoTs and HoTs wouldn't stack with other people's. That might not be a huge problem in a game where there is one class with such attacks, but with everybody potentially willing to side-spec into DoTs/HoTs, they need the option.

    Thoughts?

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    Sword of Telara Xanax's Avatar
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    I think DoT's should stack per mob and not the player casting them.

    IE , if two of the same casters are stacking DoT's they should stack up to 5x or 3x, or whatever is deemed reasonable for the amount of damage/healing it does.

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    Champion of Telara Shagroth's Avatar
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    Usually games will allow stacks to a certain percents that connect to the level of the character or mob.

    HoT or DoT that is 5% dmg will stack until the cap is hit. The cap for a level 10 mob, say, is 26% dmg

    that's 6 DoTs that are stacked to hit 26% based on the 5%+5%+5%+5%+5%+5% = 30%. But the cap is 26% so it won't get to 30% dmg it will cap at 26% dmg. Some games don't do this but most of the time they will have a formula like this in-game.

    This is just a simplified example of course. In the event they don't have a system like this, the dmg done by the HoT or DoT will just have to be reapplied as you see it being cancelled out.
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    Shadowlander
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    Yoiy, way confusing.

    But yes.. DoTs and HoTs should stack. They also should crit. Way back when DoTs didn't crit but gave you a heavy amount of damage over a long period of time it was grand, but now fights dont last 2 minutes nor is there much strategy involved in grinding. So yes DoTs should now crit because most of the time in my experience, no NPC you fight for experience will even last the duration of a DoT.

    HoTs also need to crit now because of the maniacally sped up game play. Monsters are generally more damaging in my experience and you need more healing over a shorter period of time, so it's nice to have a HoT crit.

    To answer the question tho! If you are asking if the same spell is cast from two different players landing on the same target HoT or DoT, they should stack. It cripples a necro if they land a big DoT on a mob, but if they happen to be adventuring with another necro and they cant have their dots stacked, well you just crippled the class. If two warriors were grouped and fighting the same mob, you'd expect it do be damaged from the same sword swings from different players, yes?

    However, if you are asking if a spell cast (DoT) on the same mob repeatedly should stack, I say not without boundaries or just no. It should refresh the DoT to the longest or original duration, but not be twice the potency. Or it should have a long recast, which is a horrible way to fix that, because usually big DD spells have long recasts so you cant just go dropping them all over the place on NPCs, however, DoTs are nice because you can lay up multiple mobs with large amounts of dmg over time, so.. just.. yeah.. no =p

    While on this topic. I definitely am advocating for necromancers and the shadowknight type classes to have rediculously strong DoT's. Why? In the speedy combat that the mmo world is gravitating to, This mechanic is getting less and less useful, while their general potency is stagnant. This makes a DoT user less welcome in groups because their spells never see the end of their duration, which is cut off dmg potential, and only marginally accepted in raids because they have little utility usually, and Big DD machines out parse them as well. Make DoT users very strong with their DoTs so they are atleast tolerated in groups and perhaps wanted in raids. At the very least, they could solo again =p

    By the way, this is from a healer/DD mage player, so I am not biased towards DoT users.
    Last edited by Solveri; 09-16-2010 at 09:43 PM.

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    Sword of Telara CyclopsSlayer's Avatar
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    Heh, I remember my Shaman in EQ1 at release, the Disease type dots had 10-20minute durations. Something like that had better stack lol.

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    Soulwalker
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    hard question to answer, its all about game-design. If the PvE-encounters are made up for , stacking dots/hots are ok. But one thing you have to look for is PvP. If DoTs stack and 3 dots can tick your life away in about 5 secs it's just frustrating.

    Same with HoTs...if you're unkillable in PvP cause you have 5 HoTs ticking on you, it's frustrating for every dps-class out there.

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    Rift Disciple fangGWJ's Avatar
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    DoTs from different players should stack and didfferent DoTs from the same character should stack but the same DoT from the same player should not stack.

    HoTs I am torn on. With the flexibility of the soul system, it is possible to create crazy HoT stacking on a single character that will completely trivialize some content. So I am thinking that there should be a cap to the amount of HoT's on a single target.

    Think about it. You will run into a situation where say everyone in the group is a cleric calling. One person is a shaman or justicar, whichever the tanking cleric turns out to be, and the rest are dps clerics. All have 0 or minimal points in warden and purifier for their basic HoT and absorption shield.

    What type of content do you expect will be a challenge for that group where the tank gets 5 HoTs on them and a damage absorption shield on a chain cast rotation with 4 pure dps specs in the group?

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    Rift Master Sinistrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mercury View Post
    DoTs need to stack, there is no way around it. With the availability of DoT types of attacks in the callings, not having such attacks stack will kill a lot of diversity, because people spec according to what is useful. Have anyone at PAX/GC made a note of this?

    In a few games I played most DoTs and HoTs wouldn't stack with other people's. That might not be a huge problem in a game where there is one class with such attacks, but with everybody potentially willing to side-spec into DoTs/HoTs, they need the option.

    Thoughts?
    I can only say, of course they will stack. The same DoT from two different Warlocks will stack just as much as the damage from two different Pryomancer's fireballs will stack. One's damage happens over time, the other doesn't, but to both the damage done is an essential part of the class. It would be beyond foolish to not have them stack. It wouldn't make sense otherwise. Whether or not certain debuffs will stack is probably up to the devs considering game balance. I imagine that will be determined on a debuff by debuff basis.

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    Plane Walker Perros's Avatar
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    Any damage dots from different players should stack up to an infinite number. You shouldn't punish the 2nd player using the same soul. Of course he can switch in this game but it is easier and fair if they just stack.

    Dots from the same player may or may not stack, that should depend on the ability, most shouldn't though.

    Debuffs between different players should either not stack or have strongly diminishing return.

    Debuffs from the same player should not stack.

    Buffs from different players/classes should at least partially stack but that is usually a very complex system, especially for short term buffs, flat damage buffs, etc.

    Hots and heals should stack except for wards, damage reflects,...

  10. #10
    Rift Disciple
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perros View Post
    Any damage dots from different players should stack up to an infinite number. You shouldn't punish the 2nd player using the same soul. Of course he can switch in this game but it is easier and fair if they just stack.

    Dots from the same player may or may not stack, that should depend on the ability, most shouldn't though.

    Debuffs between different players should either not stack or have strongly diminishing return.

    Debuffs from the same player should not stack.

    Buffs from different players/classes should at least partially stack but that is usually a very complex system, especially for short term buffs, flat damage buffs, etc.

    Hots and heals should stack except for wards, damage reflects,...
    Agree with these. DoTs not stacking would penalize having multiple DoT souls in a raid/group.
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    Rift Disciple XiliX's Avatar
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    If two Necros are casting the same DoT on a target, they should stack. It's separate entities sending their energies into a target. Two warriors both hitting a target do damage do they not? But, I do t think the same DoT cast from a single Necro should stack. I can see it refreshing the timer. Also think the Necro should be able to stack their own DoTs if they are separate spells i.e a poison, a life tap etc
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    Shadowlander
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    Probably a bit early, but has anyone heard if there will be a limit to debuff stacks? Back in Molten Core raids, Blizzard had a limit in effect ( Removed now I believe), and we always had to be mindful of not putting inferior debuffs onto mobs, which would over-write more important ones. Just curious.

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    Telaran Padreic's Avatar
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    I think this topic is even underrepresented at the moment. There's two coins to the medal, though:

    DoT stacking: Stacking DoTs with itself (same player, same DoT) up to an amount of X is fine, if the spell is designed like that. Stacking the same DoT from another player could be a dangerous thing. But then the number of people being credited for a kill will be limited (5/10/20). That removes a lot of pressure from designers. Having a global DoT counter and limit is a big no-no. Worst example there is Aion, where a Spiritmaster in a group was virtually useless. If you had an assassin or ranger and worse, chanter, in the group, Spiritmaster DoTs would get cancelled almost immediately after being applied, because others were applying debuffs with every other hit.

    Summary: Stacking DoTs is fine. Limiting that may kill classes.

    HoT stacking: is potentially more game-breaking. This also is limited by the amount of people you can bring to an encounter. The 5-man group is obviously fine - you might bring 1-2 healers (I am not saying clerics!). So, unless the spell is designed to be stacked, it should be overwritten or not be applied. In raid situations, this might be less efficient than plain stacking. But it will prevent overpowered HoT stacking and call for more coordination.

    Summary: Stacking HoTs is not fine. Not limiting it makes HoTs way overpowered.

    Also, heal stacking compared to DoT stacking has to be based on a different calculation: an average raid encounter mob has a lot more HP than an average tank. So, while stacking the DoTs might make the mob lose 1-4% more HP per time unit per DoT, stacking HoTs will give the tank 10-20% more HP per time unit per HoT.

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    Plane Walker Zephirius's Avatar
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    My take on all of this isn't conclusive. I have mixed feelings about DoTs and HoTs, but after reading everyone's feedback on the subject I have concluded my feelings on a few things.


    1. DoT stacking should be possible. The only exceptions would be:
    * Only the strongest DoT will endure; casting a lower level DoT from the same spell line should not override the stronger DoT

    * Give the player/mob a chance to resist each tick of the DoT. Guaranteeing full damage from the DoT nullifies the purpose of resistances

    * Once the DoT has successfully landed on the player/mob that DoT should first run its full course, or otherwise dispelled or replaced by a stronger DoT. Then and only then should a player be able to cast that same DoT on that same player/mob. That means no multiple stacking of the same DoT from the same player and no refreshing of the DoT's duration on the player/mob until the first DoT has been removed or finished its full duration.

    2. HoT stacking should not be allowed for the sole reason that it trivializes the need for direct single and group heals. I believe HoTs were originally designed--I could be wrong--to act as a supplement to standard direct healing, not to replace via stacking. The same rules for DoTs should also apply to HoTs with the exception of resisting as any DoT potentially on the target of the HoT would serve the same purpose via dealing damage. I wouldn't want anyone, including myself, to be penalized twice.

    3. Debuffs: Only the strongest debuff from the same player should be active. Anyone else casting a weaker debuff should be given a message stating, in so many words, "This player/mob has already been cursed/augmented by this spell type." However, a debuff from a different calling should be allowed(i.e. a Pyromancer uses his strongest fire debuff and then another mage or seer uses his/her strongest debuff)

    The same goes for buffs.


    As for critical damage/critical heals: Yes, this should be possible.
    Last edited by Zephirius; 09-28-2010 at 09:35 AM.
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  15. #15
    Telaran
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    Yes dots, hots, buff, debuffs should all stack. There's no reason for dots to not stack, since they are in place of regular direct damage traditionally. Hots are fine stacking, since for a hot to be worthwhile, chances are that person casting the hot gave up a better direct heal. This will also allow for a less traditional group with more of hot type healers rather than limiting the number of hot healers compared to direct healers. Direct heals aren't negated or obsolete, simply different and, most likely, still the better choice depending on game mechanics. It's a matter of balancing casting time + mana cost + amount healed.

    For buffs, I see no reason why pulse/aura/temporary buffs shouldn't stack in a multiplicative way. If something gives a 10% buff, it would take 11 buffs of the same type to break a 25% bonus. That isn't exactly a very good return rate. Debuffs are a bit more tricky and can't use the same formula as buffs since if 10 of the same debuffs will debuff someone by ~65% , so a simple cap could limit this. Another option would be to make debuff values independently weaker (say 5% vs a buff being 10%) and then give them the same formula of basic multiplicative values. That would encourage, but not force, multiple debuffs and could be very synergistic with buffers to compensate lighter tanks, less healing, or lower dps groups/raids.

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