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Thread: Pure Bards are not good at PvP and decent soloer,How does that make you feel ?

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    Question Pure Bards are not good at PvP and decent soloer,How does that make you feel ?

    Scott Hartsman: Yes, you can. You get one pool of points, and that pool of points is determined by your level. Where you choose to put your points is totally up to you. We fully expect that there’ll be people who’ll choose to be the ultra-specialized single soul type. At the end of the day, just because you get a cool free ability for just equipping a soul, we expect people will have three equipped. Once you start playing with a system like this, you start realizing that there’s some subtleties in here that you don’t get to do in any other game. What I mean by that is that since we have the concept of souls that you only get after a certain level, we don’t have to make every soul good at doing everything like people have to do making MMOGs with a traditional system.

    Taking a look at the current juggernaut, every single class has to be able to solo, it has to have a raid role, it has to be able to PvP, it has to have a group role, and so on and so on. We don’t have those kinds of restrictions, because, for example, in our game we have a bard soul and it’s set up for some fun solo ability and it’s heavy on group support. It’s not an awesome PvPer, and it’s not the most awesome of the soloers, but it can solo. Since we know that you have other souls and specs, we don’t have to make the bard the greatest at PvP or soloing. We can say that we want to make this specialty soul that is primarily focused on group support, and in our system, that just works. Why? Because we have those other souls that you can fall back on for those other roles. That way, we can make souls that two or three abilities. We can do all kinds of cool stuff with that.
    This is not the first interview i have seen or read that this statement has been said.Rifts has a real specialist class in the Bard class and it is only i have heard them talk about so far but you can't but get the feeling that they are others.Is the Dominator are pure CC class? Is their pure meat shield tank or a classic healer bot in Warrior and Cleric callings

    Does it bother you that their will be a "pure specialist class" that no matter how good a person might be that are going to be whacked in head to head pvp?Are you interested in a class PVP that will never get one kill but is responsible for you team winning?

    Does that worry you in PVE that if the devs don't do a good job of mixing up how encounters work even with ability to make tons of classes ,a good specialist will be come the overwhelming choice and because it is so easy to change to a spec that the game could be come cookie cutter real quick.

    I am intrigued at the possibility of playing CC class that can't really kill anything but pin people down for teammates to kill pvp but i am little worried that it could turn pve quickly into cookie cutter no matter how good hybrid classes are in the game.If the development team does job of mixing PVE content up and being creative this should not be a problem.What your are your thoughts because the first thing i thought of is the tons of tons people we will have tell that hey this class is not designed to be great pvp,you need to use a hybrid build to be effective in pvp.

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    yes / no / good / bad / don't care / don't know / ?? <- pick the answer you want.

    What do you expect ? If you put all your 51 points into one soul you will get a pure "specialist" therefore there is a system that allow you to use more as one soul. Play around with the points to creat a mix of abilities that fits your needs.

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    Having done one of the instances with a dps hybrid tank, an assassin/bard, and a HOT only healer. I can say for certain that certain specs will do better than other specs at different things.

    I like it. Having played rangers and bards in all if not most of the mmos I've played i ususally encounter a few things. Rangers are hard to solo....kiting ususally becomes the norm, some games they have pets and are really good, some games they are gimped. Bards, eq2 mostly, aren't good solorers IMO, but awsome on a raid. In those games you are stuck like that. If I want to go out and solo on my bard it will take me twice as long as the good solo class.

    In Rift, I can be a bard on the raid, which is what I really enjoy. Then durring daylight hours so to speak I can be an assassin or blade dancer, or even a ranger, to solo. or amix. yes there will always be min/maxers...but I will say that there are "so many" combination that I don't think you will see cookie cutters right away. And if one soul is good at multple things then it would be very hard for a group to say "we only want a paladin" that group will be sitting awhile since alot of people may have other things in their spec...or if you want to group with them..you could go change your souls around.

    Really being good at PVP, in my experience, is up to the player, not that you have to have a certain class/spec. If you have the spec and you still suck, your going to suck regardless.

    However...there is one thing I can see about multi souls that may be a bad thing...you will get alot of players who don't know all their abilities. Instead of learning 1 class well, if they decide to mess around with hybrids, swaping souls, etc, they will have to take the extra time to learn 8 classes well.
    Last edited by Starseeker; 09-16-2010 at 11:40 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timrum View Post
    yes / no / good / bad / don't care / don't know / ?? <- pick the answer you want.

    What do you expect ? If you put all your 51 points into one soul you will get a pure "specialist" therefore there is a system that allow you to use more as one soul. Play around with the points to creat a mix of abilities that fits your needs.
    I think you miss one of the points i was trying to say.I was trying to express that if somebody ever said that Bard sucks at pvp ,The devs would reply we know and we are not changing it and if you want to be good at offensive pvp you need to mix the bard class with another class to be effective in offensive pvp.

    You stick 51 points in Champion you might be able to off tank,solo pve, dps,pve,pvp.You stick 51 points in a bard class will not be able pvp effectively,you will not be a solo pve well,you will be the best support support class in the game.They are class that are not good at things.The Bard is primarily a support class with no effort being made for it be good in pvp or a great solo class and the likelihood we will that are more class that type of thing.I am pretty sure they are warriors that can't tank unless they join with another class.That is interesting design decision

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    General of Telara luci's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirabi View Post
    I think you miss one of the points i was trying to say.I was trying to express that if somebody ever said that Bard sucks at pvp ,The devs would reply we know and we are not changing it and if you want to be good at offensive pvp you need to mix the bard class with another class to be effective in offensive pvp.

    You stick 51 points in Champion you might be able to off tank,solo pve, dps,pve,pvp.You stick 51 points in a bard class will not be able pvp effectively,you will not be a solo pve well,you will be the best support support class in the game.They are class that are not good at things.The Bard is primarily a support class with no effort being made for it be good in pvp or a great solo class and the likelihood we will that are more class that type of thing.I am pretty sure they are warriors that can't tank unless they join with another class.That is interesting design decision
    That is why they let you have 4 different specs that you can make and switch between. No bard will not be good at pvp...so when you want to do that you'll have to switch to a pvp spec and the same for a solo pve spec. It'll be like that for pretty much everyone that plays. Myself when I get it I'll likely be using a shaman/justicar/sentinel for solo and a mix of healing souls for healing times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by luci View Post
    That is why they let you have 4 different specs that you can make and switch between. No bard will not be good at pvp...so when you want to do that you'll have to switch to a pvp spec and the same for a solo pve spec. It'll be like that for pretty much everyone that plays. Myself when I get it I'll likely be using a shaman/justicar/sentinel for solo and a mix of healing souls for healing times.
    I was just about to say the same thing.

    @OP You aren't stuck playing a bard unless if you want to. I don't see the point of your post in a game like this. When you will have tons of choices, when your soloing or pvping you will want to change it up and not keep it bard only, if at all (you may prefer some other mix of 2-3 souls).

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    I'm totally fine with this. Rift allows you to pick the right tool (spec) for the right job (encounter, group make up). The shoe is on your foot. The bard for life people seem to be having an identity crysis (hehe)...don't get hung up on semantics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirabi View Post

    Scott Hartsman: Yes, you can. You get one pool of points, and that pool of points is determined by your level. Where you choose to put your points is totally up to you. We fully expect that thereíll be people whoíll choose to be the ultra-specialized single soul type. At the end of the day, just because you get a cool free ability for just equipping a soul, we expect people will have three equipped. Once you start playing with a system like this, you start realizing that thereís some subtleties in here that you donít get to do in any other game. What I mean by that is that since we have the concept of souls that you only get after a certain level, we donít have to make every soul good at doing everything like people have to do making MMOGs with a traditional system.

    Taking a look at the current juggernaut, every single class has to be able to solo, it has to have a raid role, it has to be able to PvP, it has to have a group role, and so on and so on. We donít have those kinds of restrictions, because, for example, in our game we have a bard soul and itís set up for some fun solo ability and itís heavy on group support. Itís not an awesome PvPer, and itís not the most awesome of the soloers, but it can solo. Since we know that you have other souls and specs, we donít have to make the bard the greatest at PvP or soloing. We can say that we want to make this specialty soul that is primarily focused on group support, and in our system, that just works. Why? Because we have those other souls that you can fall back on for those other roles. That way, we can make souls that two or three abilities. We can do all kinds of cool stuff with that.
    This is not the first interview i have seen or read that this statement has been said.Rifts has a real specialist class in the Bard class and it is only i have heard them talk about so far but you can't but get the feeling that they are others.Is the Dominator are pure CC class? Is their pure meat shield tank or a classic healer bot in Warrior and Cleric callings

    Does it bother you that their will be a "pure specialist class" that no matter how good a person might be that are going to be whacked in head to head pvp?Are you interested in a class PVP that will never get one kill but is responsible for you team winning?

    Does that worry you in PVE that if the devs don't do a good job of mixing up how encounters work even with ability to make tons of classes ,a good specialist will be come the overwhelming choice and because it is so easy to change to a spec that the game could be come cookie cutter real quick.

    I am intrigued at the possibility of playing CC class that can't really kill anything but pin people down for teammates to kill pvp but i am little worried that it could turn pve quickly into cookie cutter no matter how good hybrid classes are in the game.If the development team does job of mixing PVE content up and being creative this should not be a problem.What your are your thoughts because the first thing i thought of is the tons of tons people we will have tell that hey this class is not designed to be great pvp,you need to use a hybrid build to be effective in pvp.
    If you noticed something, he only stated that the Bard is a poor pvper. But that is only saying to me that he is poor as a pvper by himself. If you stick him in a group situation and pvp, the game changes.

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    Support or CC are the only roles that worry me a lot when it comes to pure specs. Well, pure healers worry me too but less so.

    Why? Because these pure specs are the ones that break content. They become litmus tests for encounters. If you have one, you pass, if you don't you fail. And then there is always the option their abilities are overkill an not required which leaves the impression that they are worthless.

    I think it would reduce the amount of future headaches to have classes that focus on something else mostly and have some utility than pure support or CC specs.

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    It doesn't mean that someone won't find a Riftstalker/Bard/Saboteur build or something that works well in solo or pvp. I think most solo and pvp specs will tend to be more diverse, and raiding / group specs to be more specific.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dexterm View Post
    I was just about to say the same thing.

    @OP You aren't stuck playing a bard unless if you want to. I don't see the point of your post in a game like this. When you will have tons of choices, when your soloing or pvping you will want to change it up and not keep it bard only, if at all (you may prefer some other mix of 2-3 souls).
    I was not really complaining except for PVE where if the specialist are too effective it may lead to cookie spec and lead to guilds trying enforce those as the only spec but i followed it up with If devs do go job make the roles need diverse then it is not problem

    In fact the thread is like a public service announcement rather than me complaining,You guy are saying it is common sense to everybody should be switch builds as need but you will see the complaints about hey my class is horrible in pvp they need to fix or my class can't tank like this class fix it.I just thought it bared noting some class in this game can't do some roles and dev is not making any attempts to balance it.It is just interesting to see that balancing in game being handle be players not the devs,If your bard is bad in pvp it is not up to dev to fix it is up to you find a combo that works.

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    I don't think it should make anyone feel anything. Don't like it? Switch to a different soul, or use skills from a different soul. Why is this a big deal? True bards are never good soloers or PvPers in any game.I'd much rather they do this than try to overcompensate and balance everything for whiny babies who need to be able to do anything with any class. That isn't what this game is about.

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    Rift Chaser Scythras's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kirabi View Post
    I was not really complaining except for PVE where if the specialist are too effective it may lead to cookie spec and lead to guilds trying enforce those as the only spec but i followed it up with If devs do go job make the roles need diverse then it is not problem

    In fact the thread is like a public service announcement rather than me complaining,You guy are saying it is common sense to everybody should be switch builds as need but you will see the complaints about hey my class is horrible in pvp they need to fix or my class can't tank like this class fix it.I just thought it bared noting some class in this game can't do some roles and dev is not making any attempts to balance it.It is just interesting to see that balancing in game being handle be players not the devs,If your bard is bad in pvp it is not up to dev to fix it is up to you find a combo that works.
    No matter what game you play there are always cookie cutter specs and always guilds trying to force people to play a certain spec. I don't see why it's such a big deal if it happens in this game. But I agree, I think it's cool that they are letting players "balance" their own class rather than the devs themselves. They are providing us with the tools to create the classes we want with the skills we want. Not every game has to be WoW and have every class perfectly balanced so people stop whining.
    Last edited by Scythras; 09-16-2010 at 01:22 PM.

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    I am a little worried about Hartsman's words.
    It seems that, in their effort to give players characters which can be used in different roles without any penalties in Rift you end up with 4 classes total.
    Let's take scouts as an example: if Bard is a group soul not that great in PvP then most Bards in the game will become Assassins for PvP and Rangers when they want to solo. Each archetype will end up with: a PvP soul, a raid soul and a solo soul. Different specs for different situations. And while switching a role is good, you end up with 4 jack of all trades in the game and nothing more.
    So we all probably will have 4 alts (one for archetype), each able to switch into multiple roles. Which is ok, I guess, but then it's not like you have a Bard class in Rift, you only have a Scout class with a Bard "talent branch".
    Last edited by Jorval; 09-16-2010 at 01:58 PM.

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    I would expect a pure bard to be almost helpless in PvP (unless he can speedkite his opponents). A pure bard is a pure supporter, imho. Supporting means not doing things yourself but helping others to do them very much better. With the announced soul system I do not care about a bards performance in PvP, because I will have a scout build for PvP, one for soloing, one for grouping/raiding. So I really do not see any problem here!
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