There are too many damage abilities, and not enough Utility or CC abilities.

[AlphaUnicorn]

I enjoy Rift immensely, but using 8-10 keys just to perform raw DPS and almost none for Utility or CC is a very boring system.

I will compare my Rogue in Rift to my Rogue in Warcraft.

Simple Combat Rotation for my Rift Rogue:

Time Bomb, Fragment Bomb, Spike Charge x 5, Detonate, Caltrop Charge x 2, Annihilation Bomb, repeat.

http://www.dunsparrow.com/2012/04/18/saboteur-1-8/

Simple Combat Rotation for my Warcraft Rogue:

Sinister Strike, Revealing Strike, and Eviscerate for a finisher.

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/pve/rogue/...-and-cooldowns

Now from the outside looking in, it appears that World of Warcraft is way too simple, and some would argue that it is too easy. For those who have played both games, however, they will realize that Rogues in World of Warcraft have much more Utility and Crowd Control that they are expected to use.

In Rift I feel like I have to hit a bunch of buttons that essentially do the same thing. It's like having to shoot six guns instead of one.

Utility for a Rogue in Rift:

Incriminate.

Utility for a Rogue in Warcraft:

Cloak of Shadows, Vanish, Feint, Tricks of the Trade, Recuperate, Smoke Bomb, Disarm, Blind, Sap, Sprint, Snare, Multiple Stuns, Interrupt on a 7 second cool down.

When I am playing my Rogue in Rift I feel like 99% of my focus is spent on trying to keep a lengthy, and complicated rotation going.

When I play my Rogue in WoW, my combat rotation is fairly simple but I am constantly on the look out for critical interrupts, CC, and utility that is not just a benefit to the group, but is a requirement.

This makes the skill cap in WoW much higher.

Lack of Utility:

In Rift, when I join a group or a raid, the only thing that is expected out of me is button-mashing 8-10 buttons that do DPS.

When I get invited to a Group or a Raid in Warcraft, it is generally because the Rogue class has a utility that the group NEEDS. You couldn't even clear BWD, or Heroic BoT without a Rogue.


Lack of CC:

In Rift there is a general lacking need of CC, so even when a class has it, he rarely gets the opportunity to use it.
Warcraft is the opposite. When ZA/ZG was released, I was the most geared Rogue on the entire server, and was still regularly expected to use Sap or otherwise the group would wipe. This extended to clearing trash in raids too -- CC was massive in every raid (Circle = Sheep, Square = Sap, Triangle = Trap).

In-combat CC -- I can't count the number of times a patrolling sentry was heading towards my group and I CC'd it with blind, and saved the entire group. This is not unique to the Rogue class. About 80% of the classes are expected to fulfill this role (Hex, Sheep, Trap, Cyclone). Unfortunately, Rift doesn't offer any class these opportunities.

Lack of Interrupts:

In Warcraft my Rogue is regularly expected to interrupt, and not doing so can cause the entire group to wipe -- even in a 5 man group. In Rift, a few raids require an interrupt, but it is rare. I have never seen a 5-man boss, or normal mob that requires regular interrupts to defeat.

TL;DR -- On Average, Rift requires a massive amount of buttons to perform a basic combat rotation (Raw DPS), and 0 buttons for interrupts, crowd control, or valuable group utility.

[Hartzekar]

I would say the problem is not that Rift's rogues don't have enough CC (look at Assassin and Sabo), but that the content simply doesn't require as much CC.

[Adastra]

While CC in PvE is pretty much absent, save for maybe a few select fights, or perhaps if you're very new to a raid, there are some mobs that can be CC'ed. It is useful in PvP, although the DR system is very unforgiving. The first thing Trion would need to do is to redo the DR system to have more categories/groups like WoW did, then they can focus on adding new toys/tools for souls to use.

Although, if I'm not mistaken I think Cata's 5-mans was pretty much a pull/AoE like Rift was, no idea about WotLK since I never really played it, but from what I heard, it was a pull + AoE fest too. As far as rogues go in Rift, the MM is essentially that utility rogue, spammable purge and a reliable interrupt/silence.

Edit: Also in Rift, the abilities you have is largely based on specific points spent in a soul. In WoW, every character has a pretty big skill list to begin with and their talent tree mainly serves to boost specific skills, with maybe only 1-2 talent tree only skills being unlocked.

[Violacea]

CC needs to be left alone until they can figure out a way to make it so every player can rely on their CC without question. Aside from soul granted temp buffs/immunities. Sort of discouraging to see how fail CC is in this game. I played Eq2 for years and all my CC was 100% reliable. On my mage, never had to worry about my snare not working, my roots always worked, my stifle worked. My CC worked when I planned on hitting it. That is the core of a lot of class balance problem as lots of CC is a direct counter to others in self defense/ways to get the edge in the battle. Like my examples of warriors vs'ing my MM. I have a root, KB and can even do stuff like spec a snare from 0pt sab. I am absolute garbage against a warrior when I get a string of immune hits when I use those abilities. Those key abilities are suppose to be my game breaking, spur of the moment, turn the tides, counters. Mix it in with blowing an entire GCD and you get garbage pvp combat because classes can counter each other but mechanically are blocked often. It comes down to who isn't going to have their counters blocked sometimes. The problem is the way the blocking happens though. CC DR is lazy design.

[Adastra]

On top of that, you still occasionally get CC skills or purges with a damage component that don't deal damage or anything when a target is immune. ie. Crippling Shot on DR target deals no damage, Degenerate only strips buffs if a target can actually take damage to name a couple, I'm sure there's more out there though.

[Caydin]

Why are you omitting the vast number of utility abilities that not only Sabs but many souls of Rogues have?

CC is not necessary in PvE content because tanks have the tools to pick up and control adds, while healers have the tools to keep them alive. But just because it's not necessary doesn't mean it doesn't exist. WoW didn't have many dungeons where CC was necessary except at the very beginning of Cat.

[Ropeadope]

The lack of Rogue CC isn't all that much of a problem. The problem is that CC in Rift is 95% useless and/or unneeded. You can have all the CC and Utility that you want but when there aren't mechanics that require you to use any of it, the purpose is pretty much defeated.

[Efaicia]

CC/utility should be reserved for the cc/utility souls, otherwise they should just remove them from the game.

[Zaros]

Utility for a Rogue in Rift:

Incriminate.

... What?
I think you forgot Land Mines, Entangling Trap, Concussion Charge, On the Double, Shadow Shift, Annihilation Bomb, Choking Gas Bomb, and Adhesive Bomb.

[Turrant]

... What?
I think you forgot Land Mines, Entangling Trap, Concussion Charge, On the Double, Shadow Shift, Annihilation Bomb, Choking Gas Bomb, and Adhesive Bomb.

That was my exact reaction to the OP.

[Bluelightt]

A lot of raids in HK required interrupts and I think people complained that it was a lot of fights in 1 dungeon to require them... lets see:
1) Murdantix
2) Matron
3) Rune King
4) Estrode
5) Soulrender Zilas
6) Grugonim
7) Akylios

I don't see much complaint about it in ID but its about the same percentage wise:
1) Drak
2) Laserbeamdudeofdeath
3) Laethys
4) Conclave

So, I am not sure where you are saying PvE raids don't require interrupts. ID requires more utility (imo) than any raid dungeon before it, mostly from mages. Squirrel on Drak, Drain on Laethys, Mage interrupt on laserbeamdudeofdeath.

This isn't to say I don't like CC, I love it...my EQ character was a CC class and I miss it. They need more than just dominator as a CC soul though to make it needed in raids though, good mages are rare enough as is. If they did add more CC souls I would be pretty excited for raid content to require CC, it adds a bit more variety into raids for the key souls that can CC.

[Eughe]

Although i think the OP is smoking some serious *******, im not...NOT in disagreement.

I think there are a lot of CC, most in inappropriate souls, but not a lot of effective CCs. And in a strange twist, most of the effective CC, are in high damaging souls.

Utility should come with a dps loss, currently, it doesnt for most.

[AlphaUnicorn]

... What?
I think you forgot Land Mines, Entangling Trap, Concussion Charge, On the Double, Shadow Shift, Annihilation Bomb, Choking Gas Bomb, and Adhesive Bomb.

You're the only person on the planet who considers things like Land Mines to be a raid utility, and you are also listing skills that don't belong in any relevant saboteur tree. I didn't list Warcraft Rogue's Evasion, or Combat Readiness because while they are utilities, they offer NOTHING to a raid or group itself.

Saboteur:
Pros: High AOE damage, high mobility, good single-target damage
Cons: Complex rotations, no utility, indiscriminate damage


Now regardless as to whether or not you feel that Saboteur has a massive amount of CC / Utility (which most experts disagree), name an instance in which a raid or a group requires any of this "Utility / CC" that the Saboteur offers.

Warcraft:

Sprint: I regularly got invited to BWD because Sprint was pretty much mandatory to do Atramedes' air phase.

Cloak of Shadows: Allowed Rogues to solo Twilight Phase, which made Rogues a mandatory class for Heroic BoT.

Smoke Bomb: In third phase of Cho Gall our guild leader had Rogues rotate through this to keep the tentacles from hitting the raid.

Feint: Makes Rogues the only class on Nefarian, and Chimaeron who does not require heals. During second phase of Nefarian I regularly got placed on a pillar by myself and one other rogue WITHOUT A HEALER because we could easily survive with Feint, Cloak of Shadows, and Recuperate.

Sap: To the person saying Cata didn't require CC, try getting through BoT trash without it. I remember having to glyph for sap a week after Cataclysm had come out because I was using it so much during BoT trash runs.

Kick: There's way too many fights where kick is mandatory, anyone who played the game knows this.

These are just things that are mandatory; where a Rogue's utility was absolutely necessary in order for the raid to succeed. In Rift, there is no skills, or roles that any DPS have to fulfill to help the raid succeed. That is my whole point.

Additionally there are a ton of other quality-of-life, or useful Utilities that help a group out immensely, but aren't mandatory for any particular raid (IE. Blind (in-combat 60 second CC), Vanish + Mass Resurrect, Recuperate, Tricks of the Trade, etc.)

Some people argue that a few souls have a form of CC, but that there is a general lack of need for CC in this game. And I agree - I touched on this in my original post. There is a bit of CC in the game (which is not available to all DPS), but there is no need for it. Everything is basically button-mash, faceroll. I suppose some people would argue that it is fun, but having played both types of games, I already know that having less emphasis on a rotation and more emphasis on fighting smarter is a lot more fun.

[AlphaUnicorn]

Utility should come with a dps loss, currently, it doesnt for most.

Or give every single soul their own unique CC. In WoW, if you don't have a Rogue for Sap, you still have a Hunter, Mage, Shaman, Druid etc. who can CC. Every class basically has their own unique CC so that one class (or "Soul") isn't mandatory for a dungeon.

[TheGrinnz]

Or give every single soul their own unique CC. In WoW, if you don't have a Rogue for Sap, you still have a Hunter, Mage, Shaman, Druid etc. who can CC. Every class basically has their own unique CC so that one class (or "Soul") isn't mandatory for a dungeon.

That's true for most CC in Rift, there's just a few that are used the most because they're the most efficient or effective versions.

For example, Transmogrify from Dominator.

With just 3 points it has no cooldown, and lasts 36 seconds. To make it instant cast requires 16 points in dominator which no PvE spec will include before Laethys.

Inquisitor's Bewilder has no cooldown and lasts 8 seconds.

Bard's Verse of Captivation has no cooldown and no cast time but also only lasts 8 seconds.

A few other souls have similar abilities that "incapacitate" or "daze" enemies but their cooldown is longer than their duration.

So Transmogrify is still the best option in most cases because 36 seconds means it allows the caster to actively participate in the fight.

For snares: many souls have a basic snare somewhere, but most have a 15 second or so cooldown. Impede from Inquisitor however has a 1 second cooldown (lol) so it's essentially spammable. Leg Sweep from Champion has no cooldown and lasts longer (but of course requires melee range). Some other examples are Wither from Warlock, Flowing Sands from Archon, Grasping Waters from Cabalist, even Earth Burst from Riftblade.

Roots: Burning Bonds from Pyro, Pin Target from Warlord, Stonespear from Riftblade, to name a few.

Silences, stuns, knockbacks are similarly distributed. Not to mention Cabalist gets an AoE stun, AoE silence, AoE snare, and AoE purge.

So I guess I'm not sure what your point is.